VTC: Boundless Studios & Eyal Gever
Mon, May 18, 2026

0:04 - George Goldsmith
Hi, how are you? On mute.

0:12 - Unidentified Speaker
Still on mute, actually.

0:13 - Eyal Gever
One second.

0:24 - Unidentified Speaker
OK.

0:26 - George Goldsmith
I hear you. How are you?

0:27 - Eyal Gever
I'm good, and you? I'm good.

0:32 - George Goldsmith
the American Psychiatric Association annual meeting in San Francisco. I'm seeing a lot of old friends, and the big news is that it looks like the psilocybin from COMPASS will be approved by end of year.

0:56 - George Goldsmith
And so everybody's quite worried about all this, and now are they ready, and what will that that we like and so yeah, I've been spending time on that because we're thinking about using the music or planning to use the music. We have seven hours of it. So to support people through the experience of psychedelics as well as for the B2C version. So yeah, how are you? You've been through lots of, well, first of all, how is life in Tel Aviv?

1:30 - Eyal Gever
Yeah, it's a crazy place.

1:34 - George Goldsmith
I mean, we're waiting, we don't know if the war is going to be resumed at any moment or not.

1:43 - Eyal Gever
It's crazy. But yeah, life is okay. Yeah, and I had the opening in London.

1:53 - George Goldsmith
How did I want to go see it? It's still open, right?

1:56 - Eyal Gever
Because I'd be there. Yeah, it's going to run for a long time. This whole setup they have as a gallery is different than other galleries because they function it as a private gallery for private meetings and sessions because the artworks are expensive, but also they have some are projections. Some has special lighting. Some has sensors. So what they're saying is that it requires almost a guided tour when a collector is coming. And this is something I kind of like because, you know, they are a new gallery and I was impressed by how they cater, how they display digital and technology art. But, but I don't know how they're going to do their spaces. Okay.

2:58 - George Goldsmith
But it's not like a white cube, amazing space.

3:02 - Eyal Gever
So for me, starting with them as a, as a very focused sales channel is great. They have a good selection of artists.

3:16 - Eyal Gever
The exhibition, they've done a good job. There's one work which I really like, The other works are, obviously, the artists are good, but they're not deep. They're really more decorative, if you will. Previous artists that they displayed there, I liked more. They were more minimalistic, etc.

3:37 - George Goldsmith
But I think the exhibition is impressive.

3:42 - Eyal Gever
The last moment, I had another canvas there that they gave me, which was a wall, which is almost two and a half meters on two meters square, almost. But when I came, I saw that the resolution is not as good as the other two screens.

4:04 - George Goldsmith
Oh.

4:05 - Eyal Gever
And my work requires really, really high details. It sure does, yes.

4:09 - George Goldsmith
So the other screens are superb. You see, like, every pixel.

4:13 - Eyal Gever
And this screen was hazy.

4:16 - Eyal Gever#+#George Goldsmith
And because there is resolution is not high.

4:22 - Eyal Gever
So we decided to, for now, not to display the art on this screen and they will in a later stage buy alternative screens so I can display the works. But, you know, every exhibition has changes and, you know, but other than that, I'm happy and I I worked on the artworks, I think they're very powerful and unique. So yeah, so the opening was good. A lot of people, I hate openings.

4:54 - George Goldsmith
I didn't know most of them who came.

5:00 - Eyal Gever
Rosie came, some other friends of mine came. Yeah, so I'm happy it's over.

5:11 - George Goldsmith
Yeah, back to work, you know, so that's good. Good morning, Allan.

5:19 - Eyal Gever
Good morning.

5:25 - Allan Malievsky
Well, you know, I'm glad that you've had the experience.

5:28 - George Goldsmith
So how would I see it? Would I need to make an appointment? No, just ping me when you are in London, and I'll put you in contact with Cyril, who is the director of the gallery.

5:40 - Eyal Gever
And that's it. Then you guys will connect and when you'll go, he'll take you through everything. Great. I'm there Tuesday. Next week. Okay, so I'll connect you guys. I'll give him your contact or should I open a group on WhatsApp? What do you prefer? On WhatsApp would be great. Okay, I'll do that.

6:04 - Unidentified Speaker
Hello?

6:13 - Unidentified Speaker
We might have lost him.

6:19 - Allan Malievsky
Pretty interesting. I don't know, Allan, if you want to.

6:21 - Eyal Gever
George, we completely missed it. As soon as you started talking, it froze.

6:25 - George Goldsmith
OK.

6:26 - Allan Malievsky
I saw everybody else froze. This is the delights of the hotel here, I guess.

6:33 - George Goldsmith
We had a wonderful 60-person exhibit or experience at Ladbroke Hall in Notting Hill in London. And it was the first time we did that large an event. And Allan, I don't know if you have access to show a little bit of what we did on the visual side. But we've been, I think, making great progress. The power of the music is really very clear. Are losing a sense of time, they're having synesthesia, memories are coming back. And when the experience stops at 40 minutes, it takes people a few minutes to be even able to talk and come back.

7:21 - George Goldsmith
Yeah, so that's been really good to see. We have another event coming up on the 8th and another one on the 9th in London.

7:31 - George Goldsmith
So this is the space. And this was coming into it. So there was sort of this brighter, and then it changed in colors. The sad part is we spent a fair amount of time designing this space. So this is Dominic, if you go back one.

7:52 - George Goldsmith
So this is Dominic Miller in the middle. We were kind of talking about the process of making it. And yeah, we'll have videos and stuff you could, we'll share. And that's Jean Campbell, the person interviewing. I don't know if you recognize her. It's not her necessarily.

8:13 - Allan Malievsky
Oh, okay.

8:15 - George Goldsmith
Yeah, Jean is very focused on essentially people dealing with pain. She's also a supermodel in England. And is kind of the face of Burberry and CoverGirl and all this. But she's also just really deep, which is, it's an unusual combination, unexpected combination. And yeah, so she did a really nice job interviewing. The thing that we spent a lot of time on lighting, and then what happened is we had eye masks, and of the 60 people, 55 put on their eye masks immediately. Really? So it was this interesting experience.

8:59 - Eyal Gever
They kind of went in deep on the music side.

9:04 - George Goldsmith
And then we've also been hard at work on, so we've been talking to Apple about an exclusive, could we do an exclusive because of Apple Health, the use of AirPods and Spatial and Lossless and all of that. And Ola came back to who's CEO of Apple Music said, we need to figure out what it is because he didn't want us to get lost in the area of wellness music, spa music, relax, focus, sleep. He said that it's just so different and it's also a big category.

9:45 - George Goldsmith
And so we need to figure out something different. And that set us into a fair amount of discussions with various researchers and folks. And we came up with the idea that to call this a new category, but not a category, not a genre of music, music, but a category of experience. It sort of is in the direction of your, you know, notion of empathic art manifesto. We're now working on our Entropics manifesto. And the idea of this comes out of work by Robin Carhart-Harris and Carl Friston, who in a minute about the app and kind of where we are with that, because that's kind of a connection to this. So, what happened was in the psychedelic experience, you have a tremendous amount of kind of chaotic brain activity.

10:45 - Unidentified Speaker
New connections are being made, new connections are explored.

10:48 - George Goldsmith
When you have like the traditional wellness music, it's all geared through frequencies to kind of do entrainment at a particular frequency, as opposed to having this very diverse set of frequencies and connections.

11:03 - George Goldsmith
is more of that kind of chaos, really. It's right on the border of chaos in terms of brain activity. So it's actually something you can measure.

11:14 - George Goldsmith
And you'll find it interesting, I found it interesting, the way you measure it is you take the EEG file and you do a calculation on, like you essentially try to zip the EKG file. And the harder it is to zip or the longer it is larger the file is relative to the original, that's an indication of chaotic or entropic states. So when you do an entrainment and you zip it, you have strong compression because you have more consistency. So somebody came up with this, and this is how neuroscientists now measure entropy is through the compressibility of the EEG file.

11:57 - Eyal Gever
I thought you'd like it.

11:58 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.

12:01 - Eyal Gever#+#George Goldsmith
So we now are collecting EEG through our app, which has become quite beautiful and simple and elegant.

12:09 - George Goldsmith
But we have a major issue that we wanted to talk to you about, which is, I hand it over to you since you've been deep in the kind of how do we represent visually this experience at the end of it?

12:25 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah, I think there are a few things to say. Okay. So I think none of this is to really discount the progress I think that's been made by Bob, by Jakob, and anything related to the app. I think it's been kind of extraordinary what they've been able to do with signals from an EEG, right? Yeah. So I think what we're seeing now, there are a few clear dimensions on which the EEG seems to impact it. Most obvious one is resolution, right? And some, to some degree, the saturation. But we keep running into is, A, there seems to be, especially around kind of like live generation or, you know, as you're watching like real time, if you open your eyes and you want to see what's going on, it's invariably abstract, right? And it's fairly similar, you know, between sessions, between people and so forth. And what we're exploring exploring, I guess, a couple routes. One is to go really fully bespoke, right? And to kind of work it out, you know, ourselves internally at every step. I mean, there's going to be layer upon layer, right? It's kind of, you know, sort of the library layer, and then, you know, some kind of matrix that reads it, and then something that checks it, and then something that, you know, translates the visual into text, etc. I mean, there's like so many steps to it, right? So I think there's one that we're exploring. And I think, you know, I think by someone like yours, your hand, that's maybe more feasible, right? We're also exploring a way, you know, to, I mean, there are certain kind of commercial packages, commercial tools that are out there. Replicate is one. There's a few others that are kind of like it that offer this sort of stack, you know, it's at least partially completed that you then use either Laura or something along those lines and train it on a library of images, right? And so I think, for me, I guess it's an open-ended question is one, you know, does any of that, a kind of resonated sort of, maybe have you've seen something like that? Does it sound maybe potentially like an interesting problem to approach? Because I mean, there is, I mean, there's definitely a signal there, right? I mean, you know, by almost invariably we see, you know, people listening and seeing the, you know, signals for entropy go up, you know, alpha, you know, going down for, or rather up for people, most people and myself, not really. But, you know, it again, I'm just not sure. There are some starting points, right, for images and so forth. So I think that, you know, an obvious one is to just, you know, increase the size of the library, right? But to, you know, start having kind of figures emerging for people that, you know, this speaks to or faces or, you know, really something that goes beyond kind of an abstract abstract look like this. I think that's what, that's the, I guess, I don't know if it's an obstacle. It's just something that we are, you know, keen to, keen to see. I think not everyone will say no to this, but also not everyone will say, you know, this is really speaks to me.

15:36 - Eyal Gever#+#George Goldsmith
Quick question, the interface, the interface in the process of tracking the EEG, is that literally sort of you're putting people's head or how are you tracing that?

15:49 - Allan Malievsky
So the EEG is actually, so like any individual user can, you know, submit their EEG because it's a commercial, this is like a resale product, right?

15:58 - Eyal Gever
And it's EEG signals are quite good.

16:03 - Allan Malievsky
And so one thing that like, you know, what the app does really well, what Muse does really well is it collects this really quite high resolution data that's not kind of, they're not real other devices, at least not this scale to produce something. But again, right, it's I think it really is as simple as like, well, that's not simple, I shouldn't say this, you know, the curation of the library on which it's based on, right, so it has something to pull from something to kind of think about. And then, you know, of course, what it actually does, because we don't want it like pulling in full sections of pre existing work, but we also don't want it like deriving in a way that like, you know, it's like, yeah, it's not it, but it kind of is it. Right. And so it's this, you know, you kind of get into.

16:45 - Eyal Gever
So, Allan, because we haven't spoken for quite some time, just take me back.

16:51 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah. So the the EEG now is a

16:57 - Eyal Gever
OK, last I spoke with you guys was about the app and music, and you guys were starting to sort of thinking, figuring out, deciding on what you're tracking. And so, and now I'm hearing about the EEG and the Muse kind of sensors. So I'm asking, you know, just, you know, fill this gap to me. Is that now a part of the experience that you need to have this kind of a brain machine interface like a Muse or where, yeah, just organize it to me.

17:35 - Allan Malievsky
And that's totally valid. And I just kind of jumped in there. Just to step back, I think one of the insights around the app that we had was we wanted to be able to access the music so that people can listen to it spatially, the way it was mixed, no lossless. If you can't be at an installation, you can still do it at home. We think that at home, though, it might be valuable to add an additional layer. Do people want to see what's happening from an EEG perspective? What's going on in the brain? As you spend time listening to this music, you want to know that there's something going on. I'll maybe link that again to the product in a second, but this process of spending time with the music. At the same time, do we want people staring at individual numbers or trying to get it within certain bands? It just turns into another biohacking effort. Of sort of gamified wellness, which is not really the point. I mean, we've got enough LinkedIn influencers posting about their just amazing longevity numbers. Like we don't need more of that. There is very clear backlash to it in general, among Gen Z, among millennials. And so our thought was, how do we translate those signals into something that's a little bit more holistic, kind of a gut feeling of like how somebody is doing, and that's what the artwork is for, right? So you have a certain type of session, maybe you're a little distracted, you don't get the clearest image, right? There are some unresolved elements, et cetera. And it's meaningful to you, potentially meaningful to somebody that knows you, and certainly meaningful in the context of what Boundless is about, right? So you know that when you get a really composed, complete image, it was a pretty solid session. The issue that we're running into is, of course, not everyone will respond to abstract art. Not everyone will respond to classical art. And I think what we're trying to do to do is to strike some balance in what kind of work it can produce that retains its meaningfulness, right, that people can still take a look at it and kind of know what happened, you know, at least in their session and at least the broad strokes of some other user in it. But, you know, I think the beauty of it, right, is that when people are spending time and seeing, you know, with the music and seeing a connection between, you know, I really listened and I really kind of like allowed myself to let go of kind of what's going on in my day and I get this beautiful image, to link that time spent with the music as like a creative act. And from this also, you know, you get, there is a wellbeing impact, right? Just being creative for, you know, an extended period of time, regardless of skill, that's where the benefit often comes from, in addition to the Centropic score. The problem is everyone's, you know, everyone, I shouldn't say everyone, but in our kind of, you know, initial groups, we're getting images that are very similar.

20:33 - Eyal Gever
For a second, Allan, just to kind of- Please, yeah, I'm going to keep going in circles.

20:37 - George Goldsmith
I just wanted to ground something for Al, because we were... So, Al, this is actually a 10-minute session that Allan did. And these are three images from three time points, two, seven, and 10 minutes at the end, where resolution and clarity equals the complexity. And so this is two minutes.

21:02 - George Goldsmith
This is seven minutes.

21:07 - George Goldsmith
This is 10 minutes.

21:12 - George Goldsmith
And this is kind of the transformation of a stored image, which is, I think this was, what, clouds, I think, originally?

21:27 - George Goldsmith
But, Allan, you're on mute again.

21:28 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah, sorry. Clouds or galaxies.

21:31 - George Goldsmith
You know, I think what we're looking at really here is how do we create a more compelling art engine to transform data into something that feels like that's me. Right. Something that I created because of my preferences, et cetera. And so all we show here is there's something happening. But what we really need is this middle ground that Allan's been so well describing.

21:59 - Eyal Gever
So what we have here is a few things. We have a time-based experience, right? So we do have time-based.

22:04 - George Goldsmith
Yes. Two, we do have the polars, right?

22:08 - Eyal Gever
So we have polars that are enabling us to, like if it's a Venn diagram or it's a diagram, so we know on the X and Y, right, and Z, through the timeline, what was the experience of and what are the different variables or parameters we track, and then we can give rules and behavior to each one of those polars, right? And then there is a logic when somebody is looking through a time-based experience, he can easily calibrate and understand what he's seeing, even though it might be an abstract, colorful thing. But he knows warm colors are X, cold colors are Y. Depth is something else, right? I'm just throwing something.

23:03 - Eyal Gever#+#George Goldsmith
You're right.

23:05 - Eyal Gever
And so it's a journey.

23:10 - Eyal Gever
Even if at the end we'll show frozen frames within the timeline, but easily we can create a fly through, right? A clip of the journey. And even tag the experience along the way. And then the user knows here I was chilled, here something freaked me out, here I was totally dreaming, da, da, da. And then this data is not just being told as narrative, it can be visually interesting, appealing, as well as it can extract next steps, right? Can extract like in your next listening, you know, this is this area. This relates more to what functionality you guys are after based on the compass experience or where you want in your healing wellness goals.

24:11 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.

24:12 - Eyal Gever
But if I keep it on the artistic level, what I would, you know, start to to have is attach it to, so colors, we know there is research that was done, especially in the last few years, where they tracked the impact of different colors on our emotions. And they've done it through brain-machine interface, not just color theories that Kandinsky or different professors, psychologists have done in the last 50 years. This is literally, on different patients, what is the impact of yellow, what is the impact of blue, and what is the on the emotional state, right? So assuming that we can treat colors based on clear rules, composition, speed, and then the generation of the artwork is based on those rules that we have defined. And it's being driven by your specific journey. This is kind of in the nutshell of my thinking, right? How I would have approached it. It's really interesting.

25:21 - George Goldsmith
I don't know if, like I'm trying to figure out how to demo the app from my phone, but essentially one thing I'll show you is when we start, there is a space that people enter, which is where are they relative to and arousal, and how open are they or closed to new experience.

25:48 - Eyal Gever
And how was the pre-journey, what was the leading...

25:51 - George Goldsmith
This is the pre-journey check-in, there's a post-journey check-in.

25:55 - Eyal Gever
Okay.

25:56 - George Goldsmith
So as you're talking, one of the things I'm imagining is in this quadrant space of these, this three-dimensional axis, you actually can relink that to the colors that you started with. Because of what you just said, right? And then you could get to a different color palette at the end when you do the final check-in, or this could modify from your starting state to your ending state. You could then put your ending state and we ask the same questions at the end. And, you know, that could kind of create a experiential image of where you ended and where you started with. I love the idea of doing time series. Because the other thing that I've been really intrigued with in group experiences, and it's completely based on your insights and some of your work on the Empathic Manifesto, was what if you had a group of people who were in an environment with the sphere? And that was actually doing the same thing, kind of with a Bluetooth beacon, and we do that aggregate. And so, you know, creating these these spaces where people can actually share the experience and have it represented. And we did a little bit of a picture of that somewhere. I can share it with you at some point. So yeah, I think this is really all about...

27:24 - Eyal Gever
Two things I wanted to add, because it's in my head. By the way, could be either abstract, but also it could be for some who would prefer realistic, right? So I'll give you an example. One of the thinking I had was, okay, if I know the emotional state of my viewer, so I can either use, if I want to create like an abstract art, I can use the rules of what we know about colors and speed and emotion and energy relating to emotions, or I can take a vista, a view, whatever view, it could be a desert, it could be an ocean and exactly attach it to weather.

28:12 - Allan Malievsky
Right.

28:13 - Eyal Gever
So as you're coming in front of this, this beautiful landscape of what you always said, Allan, you like the black sand and the kind of but it can, you know, if you want some to be tranquil or show him that through this period he was chilled, you know, sun and beautiful lighting and everything is relaxed. This is how we see the landscape. But through the timeline when he was anxious or confused or whatever, you know, it could become darker or windier or etc.

28:50 - Allan Malievsky#+#Eyal Gever
So we can apply the rules and they could drive atmospheric.

28:56 - Eyal Gever
And the second thing I want to tell you guys is, OK, so the exhibition I've done now, I call it Forces, right? The Physics of Feeling. I don't know if you've checked the website, but what I've done is, you know, since October dealing with emotions and the feeling of, in a way, not negative feelings, but in a way that there are moments where there's just so much pressure on your soul and the pressure doesn't have where to go because nobody can solve these problems. Those are mega problems. None of us have a control on it. And so forces what I've created, I've created the artworks that are in a way looking at an emotional journey, almost giving emotions a physical interpretation, right?

29:58 - Allan Malievsky
Almost like as we feel emotions in the body.

30:01 - Eyal Gever
So when you look at the artwork, it's a time-based artwork, there's no narrative, there's no story there. But as you if you simply look at it, you go through an emotional journey, right? So this, because there is a physical, through physical simulation, fluid simulation, I give, you know, I create a situations and events that, of tension, of relax, of different movements, right? The second project I'm about to start, So if in the first work, body of work I called Forces, I was in a conversation with Richard Serra. If you know Serra, so first he's one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. He died few years back, not too long ago, and he was the one of the fathers of the minimalistic art. And Serra always said that what he's you are an element in the artwork. Your physicality, the way you move around his artwork, is a fundamental part of the experience. And it's not about narrative, it's about the physicality and the tension that his art has as you as the viewer. Now, the second part, and so I use his compositions and his math as a starting point. To create those emotional topologies. Okay, so that was forces. My next artwork, it's about colors and it's about atmospheres. And there I want to be in conversation with Rodko. Okay, so if Sarah was about physicality, mass, gravity, Rodko was about conveying emotions. Like, you know, when you are looking at his colors through many, many people's experience. Some are literally are feeling the vibes that he had when he painted those works. Now, all those are palettes, if you will, and aesthetics that when the integration to emotional AI will be ready, then I'll have the lingo, the visual lingo already of driving different emotions, right? Colors through speed, volume, gravity, etc. So, this is sort of the background I gave you where I'm heading and really looking forward to already implement the integration to an emotional AI kind of infrastructure.

32:51 - George Goldsmith
So, the experience is not just a linear one, but a real-time loop, So I think this notion, it's been interesting the way you're speaking, because I think in talking with Apple and the thing that's been really missing is this notion of recursion. So I'm listening to this. There's a claim that this is sound therapy. This is relaxed focus, but there's no recursion. There's no evidence of that. There's no change in it. And so I think, you know, what you're saying is spot on. It's really interesting. It is. And one of the other things that's been running through my mind, so I love what you've been saying, Al. And I think it would be amazing to kind of start locking in now, how do we, if you're open to it, work together, because we're at this place. I think we're at this interesting moment. And I think that the thing that also is interesting is that entropy scores go down when you open your eyes.

34:03 - George Goldsmith
And so the question really is going to be, how do we think about this as a fly-through of your experience after the experience? Because then we can maximize the entropic experience through sound. In large do we think about, well, how do we enhance the entropic response through visuals for people who open it? And the key issue is not to get into a meaning-making function, because then that brings back into a much more rigid kind of thought process. So we have to eliminate any sense of narrative being imposed on someone. And I loved how you used music in your work as well. So, you know, again, there's sort of this emotional stimulus as you are moving through your work. And I think, you know, so a key question is going to be, is there a difference of how we do this as an app versus in a real time experience?

35:07 - George Goldsmith
And then particularly if people have an option of closing eyes or wearing masks, is that kind of increases the intensity. If people are having too intense an experience, we ask them just to take off the mask.

35:24 - George Goldsmith
And it kind of grounds them and brings them back. And so you have this kind of, you know, slider on intensity of experience based on simply opening your eyes.

35:37 - George Goldsmith
And so, you know, I think what, it's just, it's an interesting question about how to maximize this experience and also, to create a shareable, you know, almost experiential receipt. You know, what was this like for you, right? And have that be shareable in a gallery. I love what you said. I'm sure, Allan, you probably had a similar reaction in terms of the atmospheres, right? Because, and that starts moving into more of a personalization. And people could choose a different atmosphere or a different setting, you know, I'm not feeling this chill, I'm feeling a bit more like, you know, roiling waves.

36:27 - Allan Malievsky
And I think just to jump in, and Eyal, I'm so like, it's so good to hear you talk about like concrete representation, because again, it's different for everybody. I mean, some absolutely abstract will be enough, but seeing a landscape, seeing a face, and then seeing the your experience, which may have been quite intense and challenging, actually reflected in it, is the exact issue that we're trying to solve, really. I think extending it out to a physical installation, really one day I really do hope to see that you walk into a gallery space, it's a boundless installation, and one of the things you grab before you go on is the muse, and as you're walking through it, you're having aspects of the experience, you're seeing it reflected and it's also the group setting. So I think the platform of the app actually is what, you know, like the infrastructure that can be used for, you know, I think the physical installation, which is really the goal. But no, I just, just to reiterate everything George said, I think you nailed it. I mean, I don't have, it's nice to, it's nice to hear someone get it, you know, and I think that you do. Good, absolutely.

37:37 - George Goldsmith
I'll show you one of the, ideas we had, which is just, you know, mid-journey going wild.

37:45 - Allan Malievsky
What is this? Is this the...

37:51 - Allan Malievsky#+#George Goldsmith
Respect the globe.

37:52 - George Goldsmith
All right.

37:56 - Eyal Gever
I'm connecting also through my phone because the iPad has like five percent. So I'm going to switch to my phone. OK, keep on. I just will jump also from here.

38:13 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah, I'm here. I'm listening. I'm just logging into the Zoom from my phone. So if the iPad dies...

38:19 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah, I think it's just... Now I can just delete...

38:26 - Eyal Gever
Close the iPad. Okay.

38:28 - Unidentified Speaker
Sorry.

38:28 - Eyal's iPhone
That's okay.

38:41 - Eyal Gever
Okay, okay.

38:42 - Eyal's iPhone
Okay, here I am. Sorry about that.

38:43 - Eyal Gever#+#Eyal's iPhone
Yeah, I see the image. Beautiful.

39:07 - George Goldsmith
Right, and so I think this is, we've been having interesting conversations around how this could be placed in a clinic setting. So Clinic Le Prairie, I guess next week we have a call with them. They're building a whole new flagship in Saudi. And you know, it's, also we've been starting to get investor inquiries about all this. So it's just been an interesting period, but I think the idea of creating these individual experiences, these kind of group shared experiences. And, you know, I think at this point, it's a, what we really need is how do we create this, and we have all the measurement pieces down, we have a nice, very clean app. The app actually goes dark when you start the music, so you're not distracted. And so the whole, the experiences, I think coming together, the kind of mapping of emotion and openness. But what we're missing is this kind of how we create something beautiful for people.

40:19 - Allan Malievsky
And it's really so they can build the kind of, I envision eventually like this is a collection that they value, right? I mean, it is an artistic representation. And again, I think George also, I sometimes try to make it like, oh, it's like a new scale. It's a new like way of interpreting. But ultimately what he called it is like, it's a, it's a, Artgen engine with just with significantly more substance, right, you know, an actual quality engine on top of which it hands the kind of paintbrush or, you know, sculpting tool or whatever it is, to the person, you know, in the form of, you know, what you do is you focus in on the music and spend time with it. And that's your paintbrush. So I think, yeah, I don't know, I think that's the piece that's missing with, you know, I'm sure and I've actually tried to build one with Replicate and it does kind of do some interesting things, but it's not got a stamp on it. It's not, you know, you know, how do I say this? I would never try to pass it off as an AL, you know, as an AL, you know, you know, AL, it's all nothing, you know, it's just not going to cut it. So this is sort of part of why, you know, we're, we're, I don't know, I'm intrigued by that idea. So, yeah.

41:33 - Eyal's iPhone
Good.

41:35 - Eyal's iPhone
Yeah, so first, I'd love to check the app when you're ready, just to dive into it. But I think my intuition was, and it's interesting that Apple is kind of the portal, because now a lot of the cloud or the sort of agents, people are taking MiniMix and kind of converting them as a kind of a well-guarded kind of workstation for their agents. So what I'm thinking was, okay, so there's two timelines, right? One is where you guys are with the app and improving it, experimenting it, improving your marketing, your lingo, the user experience. But then there could be a similar to what you're doing with the acoustics, an R&D that could be based on R&D that sits on a mini Mac, where it could be a group experience or one-on-one gallery experience, or it could be another experience within the acoustics experiences and until it gets to a point where we think, you know, this is already ready for better version or a version where now it's, you know, it could be sold as a high-end limited edition until eventually in three years this become a mass market, whatever, I don't know. Yes, yes.

43:24 - Eyal's iPhone
But getting to one thing I know is that and this is what I wrote in the manifesto. I said, we're in the age of thinking machines. Therefore, art must feel. I mean, one day art will be emotional. I mean, it has to be like your car, like your refrigerator. Right.

43:44 - George Goldsmith
And so it's just going to happen.

43:48 - Eyal's iPhone
And how we get there. So the artistic experience is well as the therapeutic experience and the last mile sort of the receipt, you said, like, what am I literally, you know, how can I cultivate my time within those experience to get better in one, two, three, or be much more relaxed or cleared or in a way almost giving meditation a control system that I'm not just meditating. As I meditate I eventually improve myself.

44:27 - Allan Malievsky#+#George Goldsmith
So the work we did on the branding is boundless as modern sanctuaries for reconnection, art for well-being.

44:36 - George Goldsmith
The sanctuaries can be individual, they can be shared, they can be live experiences, and it's all about reconnecting in this world where we're simultaneously feeling over But he's meant to say simultaneously feeling over connected and disconnected, right?

44:59 - Allan Malievsky
So it's this tension that he's that everybody I think was walking around holding information agent. Sorry, go ahead.

45:06 - George Goldsmith
No, no, I didn't know if I misspeak out for just that section.

45:09 - Allan Malievsky
And I wasn't sure if I misspoken.

45:11 - George Goldsmith
I was wondering, okay. Am I aging? Okay, there we are. So I think this, there seems like really cool alignment.

45:23 - Unidentified Speaker
And then I think it turns into a very clear question. What we want to do is to really launch this notion of entropics.

45:32 - George Goldsmith
And so entropics, I think are almost, you know, it's an experience category. It's almost like a non-medical drug. You know, it's an experience.

45:47 - Allan Malievsky
It's a substance. Yeah, it has substance.

45:50 - George Goldsmith
Substance with substance. And but to really, like, take the whole issue of what genre is this and skip it and just create an experiential category. And so I think we're working on getting that together. We have been busy, hard at work creating an album. And because one of the things that came really clear to us is that Dominic has, you know, a long history of being in the world of vinyl. And, and we wanted to and everything we're doing is in spatial and spatial, by the way, in increases entropy. So when you do spatial mapping, spatial representation of sound, so L acoustics is really into this too.

46:40 - Eyal's iPhone
And we created an album cover.

46:43 - George Goldsmith
And this This is our album cover. The vinyl has been produced kind of in the most absolute high resolution way. It's a 45 album, cut half speed. And so what we're doing, the launch plan is the following.

47:03 - Unidentified Speaker
Album, we have 2000 limited edition copies made. And then we'll have, we've just finished the spatialization of the music.

47:12 - George Goldsmith
which I can share with you on the album. That's also been done in sort of high-res binaural as well. And those two pieces launch on Apple Music with a 10-minute sample of a boundless experience. And then the app sits on top of that with access to longer, larger, different kinds of pieces as subscription. So what we're aiming to do is to try to have a simultaneous launch of all three in early September. Oh, cool. So that then says there's a timeline on could we start working and figuring out how we would work and what the terms would be, all of that. But is there any kind of, could we do something that is a step beyond what you just saw that we shared? But we'll iterate over time. But could we have a minimally valuable product rather than viable? Yeah.

48:17 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah. I mean, my suspicion is that, you know, we still have the two, based on what even what Al has described, that we have two kind of options, right? That there is this very bespoke, highly sophisticated and sensitive product slash thing that we've described, which is essentially feeling art, art that reflects back at you, right, that it's kind of, you know, this is, I think, the grandest vision that all that you that you laid out. But, you know, I wonder if while we're working on that, and sort of like a longer term thing, if there is a, I don't know, something that sort of exists in the interim, right, whether it is a partially built out stack with maybe a stamp on it, right, somewhere in the, you know, algorithm, right, that this is like, when it presents, we know that this was, yeah, this kind of a work with artistic merit, right? And then sort of work on the next, like the real engine, you know, behind the scenes together. I think at least that's how I heard it is most feasible.

49:16 - Eyal's iPhone
For the release in September, you see the vinyl, you see the app, limited edition to 2000 people. And basically, yeah, there is a different channel to create a high end experience. But for launching the app, as well as upgrades, etc., you would want to have very cool, I would say, visualization of this entropic experience while people listen. That could be version version 2, Yeah. I do think there is a real, or rather floor, right?

50:03 - Allan Malievsky
If we can't make it, you know, clearly, you know, an AOL piece, you know, this is the AOL engine, then I don't think it's worth rushing out, right? Because, you know, I don't know, we want this part of the boundless thing, right? It's that we do, you know, we take the time we need and we get the details right. But I do think that, you know, potentially there is a route there. So I think it would be awesome for, I think, to explore it, you know, both as a forcing function for September, but also longer term, right?

50:32 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.

50:32 - Allan Malievsky
That would be my very casual take on where we stand.

50:36 - Eyal's iPhone
So for September, we need to figure out what is, I mean, the first question I would have would be, so what is the engine, the runtime that will generate the graphics, being now technical, right?

50:57 - Eyal's iPhone
That we, and yeah, it could be Unreal, even though Apple and Epic has some issues on the, you know, the, I mean, a lot of the games that had been developed or are being developed on Unreal Epic are being promoted on the Apple App Store. But I know that there are very open kind of, there's almost a fight between Epic and Apple, but that's their problem. Our problem.

51:33 - George Goldsmith
Right, right. But so they make it up.

51:37 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah.

51:39 - Eyal's iPhone
But yeah, but it could be a thin, lean, very focused first version that we can do on Unreal, and that would be our chosen platform. And then version two is richer. It's always great to start with something which is really amazing, but thin, but lean, you know, and then we share more features. More experiences, more blah, blah, blah. Now, if it's September, I need to find out. It's very short. I mean, just the QA, the testing would be more than September.

52:15 - Allan Malievsky
And I think partially to treat it as, you know, this is it's also a research window. We are going to have like a, you know, a degree of citizen science, you know, messaging, right, that this is your chance to contribute to this body of like evidence around how people respond to art and then also actually build out art. So I don't know. I mean, this is why I'm kind of OK with the thin version coming out early.

52:42 - Eyal's iPhone
Is it coming with. Are you putting a recommendation that if somebody has a muse to use the muse or is it mandatory to have the muse?

52:51 - Allan Malievsky#+#George Goldsmith
It's not mandatory, but it is a recommendation.

52:54 - Allan Malievsky
And we're actually a conversation with Muse to make it a more formal and obvious partnership, which I think would go a long way. Because again, it's like your paintbrush. You can still paint and, you know, sort of give it instruction based on your, I think we want to, you know, preface when people kind of do the X, Y, Z thing. There's also a couple of questions about aesthetics. Maybe just, you know, between these three and, you know, depending on if we can gauge how, I guess, immersed in the art it is, you can start off with stuff like, you know, do you like Da Vinci or do you like Warhol and go to like, do you like Rothko?

53:25 - Eyal's iPhone
like Vermeer or whatever.

53:27 - Unidentified Speaker
Right.

53:27 - Allan Malievsky
So like we kind of gauge it out and then it still builds out based on some kind of like, you know, elements or principles it pulls from that preference. They'll still recognize it. Right. It just doesn't have necessarily the topology of like, you know, that reflects your EEG specific. Right.

53:43 - Unidentified Speaker
Right.

53:44 - Allan Malievsky#+#Eyal's iPhone
So I think it's still valuable for people. It's just it's definitely a richer experience with eyes closed, eye shades on, EEG band on.

53:53 - Allan Malievsky
Yeah. It's just going to Yeah, it's going to be more personal, like it will know you in a way that otherwise it wouldn't. And at least that's how I talk about it.

54:00 - Eyal's iPhone
So I think what we could do very productive is in the next few days, let's exchange.

54:10 - Eyal's iPhone
Thoughts, ideas on what could be for September, if not to a quarter after September, September, it's an eye close experience. And then, you know, around the end of the it can be a version, you know, whatever, beginning of a visual experience. That's one track. And then on a practical side, like, what do we need to accomplish on between us? So what do we need to accomplish on figuring out product development, budget, etc. So we can start to exchange those bullet points. And so eventually, in a few weeks, we have a plan and we have a working idea. But I'm extremely excited. I told you from I have good intention, good intuition. So from the get go, you know, I saw the the people, which is the most important thing in the synergy and the vision. And I said, you know, I the only thing I can do well is is keep my focus on my art.

55:14 - Unidentified Speaker
Right.

55:16 - George Goldsmith
On my contribution could be my art.

55:18 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.

55:18 - Eyal's iPhone
I also have a very technology product background, but you guys are clearly defining the product, you guys are marketing, you guys are branding, you guys are creating this whole platform.

55:33 - Eyal's iPhone
And each one does what they do best. And so, I'm very, very interested to bring to the world Empathic art or whatever the name would be. Right.

55:50 - George Goldsmith
And because I think it's new, it's going to be a new artistic experience.

55:54 - Eyal's iPhone
And even the way I created my own personal timeline, I said, OK, I released forces, which is kind of physicality of emotions. Then I'm coming with atmospheres, which is, you know, color and emotions. And the third would be what I call states. And that would be already empathic art and what state are you? Right.

56:14 - Eyal's iPhone#+#George Goldsmith
kind of the three pillars. Yes.

56:18 - Eyal's iPhone
Series. Yeah.

56:21 - Allan Malievsky
So, I'm, I love the energy.

56:23 - George Goldsmith
I love the kind of, I think your proposal makes a lot of sense. I think getting you two things. One is access to the app through test flight, just so you have an experience of it. Shipping you a muse. I don't know how we'll get that to Israel, but if you drop your address in to the WhatsApp, Rosie will get one to you somehow.

56:49 - George Goldsmith
And so that you then can start experiencing it because the app currently will generate a representation at the end of the session. And we have a 10 minute session and a 40 minute session in lossless spatial.

57:05 - Eyal's iPhone
By the way, we can look at the June in July, and just share where you guys are going to be in the world, and perhaps we can actually have a face-to-face, maybe in Ibiza, or maybe in London, or maybe Paris, I don't know.

57:22 - George Goldsmith
June in Ibiza could be hard to argue against.

57:28 - George Goldsmith
So, I think, you know, second half of June would work.

57:32 - Eyal's iPhone#+#George Goldsmith
I have a number of things like Founders Forum and stuff before that, but I think second half of June as an ambition to do kind of a really lean in and maybe, maybe we could get our neuroscientists to come over for that.

57:47 - George Goldsmith
And I think just really lean into it and have some fun too.

57:51 - Eyal's iPhone
Exactly. And that gives actually, it also gives us a milestone to get ready to.

57:59 - Unidentified Speaker
Yeah.

58:01 - Allan Malievsky
Very, very excited.

58:06 - Eyal's iPhone
We can start to think about those, the plan, as well as milestones that we want to reach until we meet face to face. Okay, that's awesome.

58:18 - George Goldsmith
Good. Last quick thing, we have another person who's kind of coming into this named Kajter Steffels. Kajter is the overseeing architect at the sphere. And his responsibility was really thinking about the immersion experience and how to create that architecturally. And so I'm spending July and August here in LA. And so incredible artist named Suvi, who's also joining up with us is, she's a cellist amazing cellist.

58:59 - Eyal's iPhone
So I'll send you some of that.

59:01 - George Goldsmith
But I think the creative energy and the team also is really expanding. So we're so happy to have you kind of also be part of this journey with us. That would be amazing. Okay. All right, next step.