VTC: Boundless app development Thu, Aug 6, 2026 0:01 - suuvi Good morning. 0:05 - George Goldsmith Hey, Bob. Mobile units. Good later morning, suuvi. 0:13 - Unidentified Speaker Hello. 0:14 - suuvi Hi. 0:19 - Unidentified Speaker Hey, you guys. 0:21 - Allan Malievsky Eyal, let me know that he's going to be running a little bit late as his son is getting back. Home early and he needs to meet him. 0:32 - George Goldsmith Oh, cool. His son is in the Israeli Navy. 0:38 - George Goldsmith So it's always a big deal to have him come home. 0:44 - Allan Malievsky Indeed. Indeed. 0:47 - Unidentified Speaker Cool. 0:48 - George Goldsmith Okay. So we have eight people. I'm trying to see who ate which ate, but here we are. 0:54 - Jacob Fandel Hey, Yakub. How are you? 0:56 - George Goldsmith Yaku looks like you have a real job. Yeah. 0:59 - Jacob Fandel What's up with that? 1:01 - George Goldsmith I don't know what's going on here. 1:06 - George Goldsmith Okay. 1:09 - George Goldsmith So, Allan, are you leading this effort? 1:15 - Allan Malievsky Yeah, I mean, hopefully the lock is. 1:18 - Unidentified Speaker Hello? 1:19 - George Goldsmith Yep. Yeah. Yeah. 1:21 - Allan Malievsky I mean, hopefully, a lot of it is sort of straightforward and us getting kind of realigned from the last week. I think a couple of things that we can do and maybe start off on it's potentially, by the way, has everyone gotten the agenda and the narrative and everything? 1:40 - George Goldsmith Yes. 1:42 - Bob Dougherty Yeah. 1:43 - Allan Malievsky Sweet. Cool, Leo. I think it might make sense maybe for us to start even before we get into any of that kind of other stuff, just to see what's kind of carried over from last meeting. So, for Bob, it's the web Bluetooth bridge and live muse the web build status. So, I think that we were talking about. Potentially looking at how any integration might look like or what a version of that might look like for a current app. I think that may be out of date, but I just thought I'd include it just to check. 2:18 - Bob Dougherty Sorry, is this AL's web demo? I think so. 2:24 - Allan Malievsky Yeah. So the web, that's already done. 2:26 - Bob Dougherty So that's fully integrated. Got it. Yeah. And then the cool. 2:31 - Allan Malievsky So I'll just I'll make sure that that's that's struck out. And then C versus off device signal processing. I think that's done as well. Right. 2:42 - Bob Dougherty The C plus plus module is written. I think we need to decide how it's if we're make the decision that we are doing it on device, then I Japan and I just need to coordinate to put that into the app. App. 2:58 - George Goldsmith I'm sorry, Bob, could you broke up a little bit or my brain broke up? 3:03 - Bob Dougherty What is the decision? Are we going to compute fully process the EEG in the app? And it sounds like, yes, we are. And so Jacob and I need to coordinate to integrate that module. Still, yeah, there'll still be a single more. 3:26 - Unidentified Speaker to logging into AL's algorithm, whatever that settles out to be. Yes. So you're breaking up a little bit, Bob, but here's what I want to build on our question. 3:40 - George Goldsmith I think the decision we're taking right now, and this is an important thing, I guess, for you, Jacob, is that upon download of the app, we want to make sure the music is cached on the local device. If we can. Now, the music will be a couple gigs, so that could be a challenge for people. I don't know how you test whether they have enough space, but the idea would be to have people be able to use this without an internet connection if needed. And then the question is: if they do the C and local processing, would the EEG data also be? To them locally. And then what we're using basically is the chaos engine is on the server. And the yeah, so I just want to understand what's sitting where. Yeah, no, the chaos engine goes away. This would be everything happens from the phone for the EEG data. 4:38 - Bob Dougherty And I mean, whether the EEG data is currently cached on the device now. 4:44 - Unidentified Speaker even though it's uploaded. Jacob, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's cached. So that wouldn't change. 4:52 - Jacob Fandel And I think we can, you know, we can make that the file's not huge, but we can make it even smaller. 4:59 - Bob Dougherty I think two gigs for music is, I don't know what the limits are, Jacob. But that, yeah, that could be an issue. 5:08 - Unidentified Speaker to get the app, you have to be online, right? 5:11 - Jacob Fandel And if we distribute the app with the music, it will be pretty big to download it. 5:18 - George Goldsmith Is there a way to be caching it to like over time? Because I thought sometimes apps kind of do things in the background. So, is there a way over time to do it? So it's not downloaded immediately, but it is downloaded in the background. Yeah, absolutely. 5:39 - Jacob Fandel we can enable a look into like once the app is open for the first time and the user logs in and do all this stuff at the same time behind the scenes, we can start downloading the music and cache it locally. 5:53 - George Goldsmith The reason I'm wanting that is twofold. One is when they're connected to a shaky connection, we lose some of the quality of the music. So, what I'd like to do is to do two things. One is to be able to do the lossless, and then I have another project going with the sound engineering team where they're looking at the optimal binaural mix for spatial. And so, that's not necessarily going to be supported by the streaming services. So, Apple does its own kind of degraded approach to it from Dolby Atmos. And so if we have a music file that actually is optimal binaural and it's on the device, we can then say, look, this is the highest quality you will have of the listening experience. This is also really important as we move into the clinical applications, where we'll have clinics having access to the app and then they'll be downloading the six and a half hours. That's a different application or a different market for an application. And it'll be different permissions because that will be the full data set as a power, full music set as opposed to the pieces we cache. So that was the vision. I just wanted to make sure vision and reality how they collide. 7:14 - Jacob Fandel Okay. Yeah, still, I don't think we should distribute the app with all the music. Because that would make it huge, but we can definitely download it in the background as soon as they open the app. 7:27 - George Goldsmith Yeah. And if they're on a shaky connection and the connection breaks, does it restart or does it, is it a stream that kind of can understand where they are in the download process? 7:41 - Jacob Fandel We can figure it out so it's like it can continue. So it's not just. Stop and have to start over, right? 7:51 - George Goldsmith We can engineer. 7:52 - Jacob Fandel Yeah, that's a solved problem. 7:55 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, that's easy to engineer. I love solved problems. 8:01 - Jacob Fandel Ben, the next question for that is: are we then downloading? Because we have the two tiers, right, just standard at the moment, where it's high quality by the 10 minutes. 8:14 - Unidentified Speaker Then the paid version is the 40 minutes. Also, of course, everything is high quality. 8:21 - Jacob Fandel Do we cash both or just the free one? 8:31 - George Goldsmith I think it would be upon the subscription. Sorry, upon subscription. Then what we would do is start streaming the other. 8:40 - Allan Malievsky Agreed. 8:41 - George Goldsmith And the ideal would be for them to have access like immediately. So they subscribe, and if regardless of whether it's downloaded or not, they have access on the server side, but then we download it in the background. I don't know if we can switch that or not, or whether it's you have to make a binary choice. It's either on the device or it's on the server. 9:03 - Bob Dougherty No, I don't believe so because all the streaming services do this, right? When you start watching something, it anticipates that your connection could get shaky. So it starts caching while it has bandwidth. 9:18 - George Goldsmith So that should be feasible. 9:19 - Bob Dougherty And then you just play from the cache version always, even if it's not finished downloading. 9:29 - George Goldsmith Okay, Laura. 9:32 - Laura Thank you. I didn't want to jump ahead of the agenda, but just because we mentioned pricing, I was wondering, have we decided and locked in that 10 minutes experience would always be free. I just feel from my experience when you put product behind the paywall, conversion for subscribers is a bit easier because people try to gamify and get as much as possible from the app by not paying. So I was just thinking maybe it could be a one-off experience, and then there's different pricing tiers depending which sound you opt to. But we can hold this for later. Just thinking about the pricing. 10:22 - George Goldsmith I think it's a really good point. I don't think we're quite there yet to make the decision on how we're going to do that. But I think that it then goes over to Jacob and Bob. Around what's critical path for decision making on the app. When do we have to make that decision? 10:43 - Jacob Fandel We also had that conversation around these things like a couple of weeks ago, maybe, where we were like, well, everything should be highest quality. 10:52 - Unidentified Speaker We don't have a free trial. 10:55 - Jacob Fandel It's like either 10 minutes, it's always free. 10:59 - Unidentified Speaker And then you paid for the 40 minutes. 11:03 - Jacob Fandel to get the access, that's kind of to keep it simple. At least that was the direction at that point. You know, if that changes, okay. 11:10 - George Goldsmith That is that's the direction. 11:12 - Allan Malievsky Yeah, that's the direction we want to do. 11:16 - George Goldsmith Yeah, got it. 11:18 - Jacob Fandel That's how it's been currently implemented in the test version of the app. 11:23 - Allan Malievsky So we are not going to do anything resembling a free trial. 11:27 - Jacob Fandel Right, right. Good. We have the marks then resemble that as well. So we're aligned with the direction that we're going and the Figma marks and those things. So it doesn't look like there's a free trial in there. 11:42 - Allan Malievsky So, I mean, I think this is maybe then we're getting into what I sent around yesterday. So I think the doc that should be with all of and would be great to get your thoughts on is just basically how. A user, in this case, Maya 41, would progress through the app. And I think as you move through all these questions on, oh, is there a trial period? What does she have access to? Why, et cetera, of becomes clear. So, what I did was originally, I mean, I just kind of compiled from all our sources, et cetera, and then kind of went through and edited the doc. It would be great if other folks could take some time with it. Drop in where the decision points are, where there's some ambiguities. I think that would be just incredibly helpful. If we have just a few of these user stories, maybe a couple edge cases, I think that would be ideal. But first off, just so there's no, yeah, so we don't have a thousand user narratives. Does this format work? Does it make sense? What's missing? Et cetera, things like that. 12:48 - George Goldsmith Allan, I thought a really high-quality play thing to work from 12:52 - Unidentified Speaker So, thank you for that. 12:53 - George Goldsmith I think maybe sharpening that a little bit would be to see if everybody could actually get into it. And it's a shared document, so we be able to see each other's comments and to do that by Monday and to play Monday because that will. I think, sharpen a lot of these kinds of perspectives and start understanding what else, all the other things we would need to do. But I think it was a really good starting point. And I thought the structure of the document and the way it was developed was quite effective. 13:26 - Unidentified Speaker There's just a few high-level comments want to make real quick here to make sure that it would be great if it aligns more with our decision. 13:37 - Jacob Fandel the Mark says a free trial, the tech says the seven-day free trial. Like, that's not the direction, right? So let's make Apple Watch or Aura Ring. It's always Muse. So the experience will change as well, right? Because we're only supporting one. 13:57 - Unidentified Speaker So those things would be. 14:00 - Allan Malievsky I think it's also, it would just be really great to have this be essentially the first like, because I don't think it's written down anywhere, really. Some of these decisions we made, for instance, around the free trial, you know, what becomes available. 14:11 - Jacob Fandel So, this would essentially be the first doc to do that. 14:14 - Allan Malievsky So, if we could make those, comments here, because again, structure, some bits and pieces here are, you know, edits and so forth. A lot of it is also Claude co-work, right? Um, Claude knows a ton about what we do now. Uh, so yeah, hopefully, secure. Um, but it would, I think, be good to kind of make those exactly those determinations and have that be the source of truth. So we in the future refer to what are the features, what's the setup, that's where it's coming from 14:43 - George Goldsmith Yeah, and there are three work streams work starting to and emerging forth that we're all merging right now in this. So there's the existing app work that you and Jacob and Bob have done. There's a second stream coming in from Eyal. There's a third stream from Sian around some of the look and feel. And then there's a fourth stream around the business model that kind of goes through this. And I think they've been too they've been segregated. Now they need to be integrated. Some of the assumptions, Sian, and what you produced, right, are things that may have been a different kind of decision made around free trial and so forth. So this is a forcing function right now to lock down. And I think we really need to lock down on the launch model by next week. 15:33 - Allan Malievsky Agreed. 15:39 - George Goldsmith Yeah. Cool. 15:41 - Allan Malievsky I think, yeah, I mean, back to your agenda, Allan. 15:43 - George Goldsmith Sorry for hijacking. 15:45 - Unidentified Speaker No, there's no hijacking. I think that is a big piece. 15:49 - Allan Malievsky So, yeah, absolutely. There are. Decisions that we should make in the doc and then stick to them. 15:56 - Bob Dougherty Sorry. I'm going to interject. 16:02 - Bob Dougherty I worry that we're doing decision making by committee, which never goes well if we do that. I think somebody needs to be authoritative and just say, love the comments, love the back and forth. Here's what we're doing. 16:19 - George Goldsmith What I'd like to do is suggest that Allan and I take that on as a unitary voice for now. And Laura hopefully will be joining the team soon. And then that will be a new voice here. But that is the way, yeah. 16:41 - Allan Malievsky So I would still ask that people do spend time with that doc, right? 16:45 - George Goldsmith Because they're yeah, the doc has it, everybody has to do the work, Ellen, but it's just who's going to make the decision. 16:52 - Unidentified Speaker No, no, I hear you. I totally hear you. 16:54 - Allan Malievsky No, I just, it's more because, again, right, like, to be honest, like, after, even though, like, we spent, you know, conversations after conversation around this. I'm not always clear on where we net out. So this would be absolutely a good place for us at least gauge where everybody else is. 17:09 - George Goldsmith And then me, George, can just say this or that at the end. 17:13 - Allan Malievsky Yeah. I think it's this or that or now or later. 17:18 - George Goldsmith I think those are the two things because I think there's a launch version and then there's another version downstream. So starting at releases, right? 17:31 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, to that point, I think Jacob hinted at this earlier. I do think it's important that maybe this stock becomes the North Star, but we have a stream down version that's what we're doing now and doesn't include we've decided is out of scope for first release. Like the aura ring and stuff like that. If it is in, it's in it, but if it's not in, then we should have a simplified document. 18:00 - Allan Malievsky Yeah, I mean, I think also it'll be helpful once we get these edits in to actually make the edits on the UX screens and then again do an updated narrative, right? With some of the screens, because again, it says free trial, it has you know, do you want to do deep relaxation? Which again are not features, right? Um, so yeah, totally hear you. Uh, cool. 18:21 - Allan Malievsky Oh, look at that. It's AL. Hey, guys. 18:25 - Eyal's iPhone Hi. Hi. 18:27 - Unidentified Speaker Who's your son? 18:29 - George Goldsmith My son, he's back. 18:31 - Eyal's iPhone Good. Great. Sorry, I was late. 18:37 - George Goldsmith No problem. We're talking about the user document, the user story that Allan sent around and requesting that everybody. Look at it, comment on it by the end of play Monday, zone you're in. And then Allan and I will be the arbiter of when we're doing what. So we'll kind of layer it into: this is what the features will be. And then we will say, this is what the features will be at launch. And if there are features that we want to keep but not do at launch, we'll specify. That as well. And I think the timeline here, just Jacob, one other question. From the time of completion of an agreed-upon tested launch app, which would be launch for beta, test for kind of broader testing among friends and family, what is the timeline from the time that the coding is done? To the time it can show up on an Apple store? Or do we do the testing under Test Flight? 19:48 - Jacob Fandel We can do once we have, like, hey, we're sending it out to friends and family, have a bigger group at Test Flight. We also send it for a review for Apple. 19:57 - Unidentified Speaker And then they will test in parallel. 19:59 - Jacob Fandel And it will not be released. We'll put it like, do not release until it's a manual release. And if they find some things that are against their guidelines, they will come back with us and we will make the adjustments. And so, hopefully, there's not too much, but there's always something that we have to adjust. Like, regardless of how well you do things and how simple the app is, they always have something. Um, so the sooner rather than later, I would say, right? 20:27 - George Goldsmith Okay, and then the tests. So, do you have any sense of like a tip? Is it a week or two weeks or three weeks from the time of submission to Apple to getting the feedback from them. 20:39 - Jacob Fandel Usually it's within the 48 hours. 20:42 - George Goldsmith Oh, okay. 20:43 - Bob Dougherty But it could be a week or more if they find some issue and we have to fix it. 20:48 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. Yeah. 20:48 - Jacob Fandel So then they come back, we update it, we submit a new review and then they come back. 20:55 - Bob Dougherty And yeah, I don't, I mean, just thinking about what we're building into this app, I don't foresee any major, I mean, as Jacob said, they always. Pick something, but probably mine are easy to fix, quick turnaround. I don't foresee anything causing major delay. 21:13 - Jacob Fandel First, they go through the app and you see if there's something glaring that pops out. And it could be like, oh, you have Google login, Apple login. Okay, that'll be taking care of that. Then they're like, okay, what's the terms of service? How does it work? Okay, if all that passes, then they're go into the description itself of what shows up in the App Store. And if something is not quite following the policies, they'll also reject it based on that. And then we go in and update the description, the metadata around it. 21:40 - George Goldsmith Okay. So I think next week, getting clear on timeline, it sounds like we can. So, for example, what I'm trying to do is get a meeting with Apple. By the end of the month while I'm out here in California, and Ola and I are kind of back and forth on that. And his request was to be able to show something to Apple Music or Apple Health, rather, in addition to him. So I don't know if that's going to be possible from a timeline perspective, but that's a goal. But it can be done all through test flights, so we don't have to worry about any kind of Apple delays. 22:17 - Jacob Fandel I mean, we can also just. Add it to an Apple review now with the current version and then see if there's some glaring things, big things that we have to take care of 22:29 - George Goldsmith They'd do that, but then they'd have to go through another review process when the whole thing's done or not. 22:35 - Jacob Fandel Yeah, but then we, it's like, I don't think we're going change something that is foundational update change, you know? 22:45 - George Goldsmith so why don't you and Bob think about that and then figure out what the kind of best strategy is with an a goal to be able to show something to people at apple by the third week by two and a half weeks from now if that's possible if it isn't possible it is impossible yeah there's always test flight yeah good okay um okay back to you alan I think we've done that little detour You're mute. 23:19 - Allan Malievsky No, no, I was just saying that's helpful. That's sort of for. 23:24 - Allan Malievsky I realized I actually missed an email from you, yesterday, with some updates on your end. I don't know if you maybe want to run through that real quick, if that's worth mentioning now. I'm pulling up your email. 23:36 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, I send it to all of you. You. So, this week for me was mainly the Muse integration. On Sunday, I received from Bob through GitHub the piece of code that I integrated the web app that you guys have seen or will see and integrated the Muse, which works. 24:04 - Allan Malievsky Nice. 24:05 - Eyal's iPhone And then I kind of thought a lot after our meeting on Monday, the team meeting we had, specifically when George asked Bob and us and me, how do we basically take the muse data and how does this eventually come to a point where it gets to an emotional color, an emotional name? And also, with the caveat that, you know, this is not a medical grade application. We don't want to create a situation where people, you know, go through an experience, they feel X, and the system tells them why. And we all came to share the understanding that this is about experiential, empathic, experiential art. It's kind of your own personal artistic meditative journey. 25:01 - George Goldsmith However, it brought me to a sort of an internal dialogue because this question did definitely bother me. 25:12 - Eyal's iPhone I wanted to dive deep into the numbers of what am I receiving from the Muse. What does it mean? And in the document, I'm sharing my thoughts and I'm actually sharing screenshots of a wizard that I've created. The wizard is currently, and it's only for the development stage. It's not for the users, right? But the wizard basically, when you enter to the deep listening mode, here, in order for us developers to have a similar base of information, I thought that how about if I create a wizard that takes you through six chunks of 45 seconds? The first one tells you just to sit still. The second one invites you to close your eyes for 45 minutes. The third one invites you to, I don't know, to think about a positive memory. The fourth one, more challenging to count backwards from 100. The fifth one, there are six of those. And then the... Accumulated data will be able, I think, and this was in the documented question to Bob: is it beneficial or not? This was my kind of thinking process. And also, I've created a log, a log which each one can actually copy and paste into any Google Doc or email or note or whatever. And in the log, you get a layman language. Translation of the numbers as well as the numbers of the of the input from muse um and and I think it's a interesting b it it opens the conversation in order for all of us to touch the elephant around the question you Bob uh George and sorry and um because it's fundamental, it's it's even though it's not a medical grade, you know, we want to have access to the data that will help the user experience that's what I've done it and the document I said okay I'll create a document because I don't know who will go on the on the app or not, you know the the document enables you to really see step by step by step by step I wrote notes on every step and I asked a few questions. That's what I've done basically. 27:42 - George Goldsmith That's amazing. And I guess the could I just ask a simple question? Who does not have a Muse on the call right now? Okay. May I suggest that the three of you order them or because I think it'll be easier for you to order and for us to reimburse than it will be for us to ship them to you. Actually maybe not. Maybe Rosie could just order them and ship them. That would probably be the easiest thing for all of you rather than getting into reimbursement. So if you could send Rosie your addresses to deliver muses. So because I think we need to get that into testing so that you all can have the experience and we can start adding data. 28:25 - Eyal's iPhone By the way, one more thing I want to share. So I wanted to tackle this issue. For people who don't have Muse in the process of development. And I've created a simulation mode of Muse without Muse. And here I gave six journeys. One is really chilled. One is really, you know, kind of somebody who is going through a turmoil. There are six of those kind of things. Journeys, in order to challenge the data and to challenge the artworks according to the data. So I did it in order to just to test this, not necessarily have a Muse integrate. It really literally generates a Muse session, okay, from an input perspective. 29:16 - George Goldsmith Interesting, cool. 29:19 - Eyal's iPhone Because also entropy, right? I'm asking the question there. I asked Bob there in the document. You know, so I learned this term from you, George, in your document, and then the time we spent in Ibiza, entropy. And I said, okay, so am I calling the right data entropy? And I'm showing the data. In other words, eventually, especially me, and I think all of us, especially those who touch the product, it makes sense that we'll understand the data. 29:52 - George Goldsmith Yes. Yes, high-level wise, right? Yeah, yeah, In a separate and stream, not on these calls, we've been working a bit with Phil and Simon in terms of how to think about audience and marketing and so forth. And they're very locked into really leveraging this concept of entropy. And they think it's really interesting and important. And so I think getting these threads together is really important. So I guess another piece of work for all of us over the between now and next week is to dig into what EILS created. And we'll get for those who don't have muses, we'll make sure you get them as soon as possible. So just send your address in the shipping address, and we'll get them to you. ASAP. Yep. 30:45 - Bob Dougherty Yeah. 30:48 - Bob Dougherty I skimmed it quickly before this meeting, but I'll have a deeper look. Did I? I have entropy calculation algorithms. It's, I don't. Remember if that was part of the package I integrated. What was it, or did you implement it? I think it was, yes. 31:08 - Eyal's iPhone Okay, yeah, good. 31:09 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, because this is a compression algorithm result. Yeah, yeah, there's a few different variations, but yeah, this is just a bit basic. I think you will see it in the document log, log. 31:21 - Eyal's iPhone You'll be able to recognize that there. So I invite you all of you to open the PDF when you have time and love to hear your feedback. Specifically, Jacob, Jacob, sorry. Jacob is an instinct kind of thing, but Jacob, as well as Bob. Yeah, it's a good time now to have this conversation. 31:49 - Unidentified Speaker Great. 31:50 - George Goldsmith Perfect. 31:52 - Jacob Fandel Yeah, before you joined IL, we were just talking a little bit about how we should look into, well, we want to process all the data on the app itself. So, how we can integrate the C into the app itself. So there'll be some things there. 32:13 - Unidentified Speaker Could we just talk for a second about limitations on people's devices? 32:19 - George Goldsmith So obviously, there's going to be a wide range of people who are up to date and people who are less up-to-date in terms of devices. So is there a performance issue that would get injected by an iPhone 12, for example? 32:35 - George Goldsmith Or is this such a small computation that that really wouldn't be a major issue? 32:43 - Bob Dougherty We have to test it. Know. It is a relatively small computation. I mean, and that's why we're doing it in C. That's the most efficient way to implement it. I don't suspect there'd be any issues, but I don't know until we, you know, that somebody has an old. 33:02 - Unidentified Speaker iPhone in the group will be. 33:04 - George Goldsmith I have a real collection of them, but they're in a visa. Yeah, okay. 33:08 - Bob Dougherty I mean, yeah, I'm on 13. 33:10 - Jacob Fandel I have a 12 available, so yeah, a 12 too. 33:13 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I think we can look at the Muse also QA or user groups. 33:22 - Eyal's iPhone I'm sure some other users, developers have asked that. But also, if I can put my side of the visual. The empathic arts, because those are shaders rendering in real time. So as Bob said, needs to be tested on lower end. However, definitely the system knows how to reduce the frame rate and the resolution to lower screens. Shaders is the lightest graphical animation capability. So there shouldn't be any problem. 33:59 - Bob Dougherty Yeah. 34:05 - Bob Dougherty Cool. 34:12 - Bob Dougherty So, I just want to reiterate again that I appreciate that we're going to not market this as science. It's our I want to caution us in putting real emotion words in front of people. Because if they're wrong, it's an immediate turn off and they will be wrong often. The EEG is just not a reliable way of measuring emotion. The most reliable way is to ask people how they feel. 34:46 - George Goldsmith I agree with you, Bob, and I think this is really, it's a critical aspect of the check-in and checkout journey. And I think that, over time, as we advance this and advance the technologies, we figure out how to do video, all of that stuff, I think we can get much closer to that. But right now, if it's art, I think then what we want to do is keep it at the art level, use the check-ins, and then use interesting work to demonstrate how the effect is changing the artwork, but that the artwork is largely driven by the check-in, check-out, and then there's a journey that's reflected by this, but we're not over-specifying. But that's where we could also be asking people for a little voice summary at the end, for example. A journaling feature of what did you experience? And then that is also another way to start tightening this a little bit and collecting more data. But I agree, self-report here is the key issue, at least as we're learning. I don't know if everybody agrees with that at this stage. 36:04 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, I definitely can agree. Sorry, I'm jumping here. 36:11 - Eyal's iPhone That's the conversation I want us before to finalize and conclude. Yesterday I came out, sorry, yesterday or this week, I came out a bit encouraged and not a bit encouraged that we're getting data that is pretty impressive. But it's math, and I'm sharing you here the math in this document that I think. You can all understand. And that's why I'm saying if you can, after the call, during the next few days, take a look and send the group what you think. And then, because for me, just to reduce all the names of the feelings, it's a matter of seconds, right? It's not a technical issue at all. It's just that. And I love it, you know, art, art needs to be mystique, art needs to be asking questions, art doesn't have to provide answers. So definitely we don't have to tell you you feel sad now, right? We can show you the colors and the atmosphere, et cetera, of the journey. But I am encouraged, you know, by what we are receiving. And having an obsessive-compulsive disorder, and somebody who is like numbers, I want to dive into and figure out, you know, because it seems to me that it's fascinating anyway. 37:39 - Bob Dougherty So, but yeah, no, the math is fine, but the problem is these are physiological signals that we're measuring, and those signals are, you know, even in their best quality, lab-grade. You know, identity EG, it's still not always clear what emotion that clearly guess what emotion someone's feeling from that data. In this case, it's way less reliable. And then, and then, just as an example, alpha symmetry, you know, generally, generally correlates to the balance, but there's a whole literature on anger. Which shows up as positive valence quite reliably in studies. So again, I just, you know, if you if we're over specify what we're, you know, putting emotion words in front of people is just a risk that I don't think is worth taking. Yeah. 38:41 - Allan Malievsky I wonder if it's possible, and this is just me, if it's possible to implement some sort of experimental like Delta. So, like, if there is, you know, there is some significant EEG, you know, it can provide you a broad strokes guess. Not, you don't have to phrase it like that, right? But like, on average, people with this, these signals became calmer. Is that you? Is that, you know, and we can start actually, you know, testing against that. And that way we retain some of the naming and the aesthetics without claiming that it's for sure what, you know, is going to happen. Sure. 39:16 - Bob Dougherty I think that would be a better approach, but I question whether that's a good user experience. Is that really? I mean, because if you just ask, if somebody's telling you how they feel, then that's how they feel generally. 39:27 - Unidentified Speaker There's mental illness involved or they're deceiving you. 39:31 - Allan Malievsky I just wonder, like, linking what they say to, hey, this is what we might have guessed. Is this about right? 39:41 - Bob Dougherty I just don't see that. 39:44 - Bob Dougherty I don't see the value. What value you, I mean, I guess there would be some users. There'll be some users. 39:51 - Eyal's iPhone I'll tell you, I'll tell you, you know, being sort of, because I like what Allan said, you know, it's like a fortune cookie, right? So it's in a way, it's like what a fortune teller tells you. 40:04 - Unidentified Speaker It's using a language that you can. 40:08 - Eyal's iPhone it's not that you're convinced that you felt this way, but it brings you to an internal conversation with yourself, which that's a value. Yeah, okay. 40:20 - Bob Dougherty I'll stop now. Again, somebody, George, and Allan, will make this decision. I voice my opinion. 40:30 - Eyal's iPhone No, you are the main decision here. 40:35 - George Goldsmith Totally. I will do what you want, Bob. I'm going do a trial close on a decision for a moment. I think one of the beautiful things that happens when people connect to this is this, the way of doing the chart, right? The check-in. And what I would suggest is that, first of all, a lot of people, and I'd say probably more men than women, have a hard time even describing what emotions they're feeling. And I think that there's an interesting kind of model of having all the labels emerge as you're checking in. Wow. 41:18 - Unidentified Speaker So that when you're checking in, if you're moving to that quadrant, suddenly the quadrant comes alive. 41:23 - George Goldsmith And you can see the gradation of ideas. So it's almost this educational frame of helping people get in touch with what they're really feeling. And it kind of builds a relationship with the app where they're learning, they're connected to this. And that you know, as they move to another quadrant, that kind of expands and they can get to more granular levels. And then, what we do is we have that kind of granular choice: okay, I'm feeling love right now. And at the end, they go through the same process of putting themselves, and the granularity comes out as they hit the quadrant, they can be more accurate. And then, so we have their self-report in that way where we're also educating them around their emotions. We're helping them kind of get grounded in that. We're helping them reflect on what changed for them. And then the EEG pattern basically is the artwork is driven through the complexity score, or it's driven through a multimodal or a combination of the Alpha score and the complexity. We come up with some model, but that is, do we lose? Oh, no, we didn't. So, what I'm suggesting is that in general, in product development, actually, in life, I try to use take your biggest problem and skip it. And that if this is creating a lot of problems right now in the early stage where we may not feel confident. I would feel just so proud of being able to help educate people around their emotional state and just have them kind of lean into that and then develop the artwork based on the EEG complexity score or the simulation. But at least what they've done is they've been able to log from a personal perspective the impact this has had on them. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. 43:21 - Eyal's iPhone I like that. Yeah. 43:23 - Bob Dougherty And I would suggest we also start incorporating heart rate from the Muse so that when we don't have a Muse and somebody, but somebody does have another device that gives them heart rate, we still have that knob that's in there. 43:37 - George Goldsmith I think that would be great, Bob. And then I guess the question is, do we have to have them kick off a workout in Apple for access to heart rate on other devices? 43:48 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, that's a separate problem to solve. Not all other devices, some, there's a few brands that give you direct access to the PPG data. 44:00 - George Goldsmith So it's hard to say. 44:02 - Bob Dougherty But yes, like Aura, I think absolutely, you would have to do this more complicated thing. But that, and that's why this is that I think this is out of scope. 44:13 - George Goldsmith I would also like to add, not for this first release, but I'm in conversation with someone developing a new ring in India that he believes has a much better view of parasympathetic and sympathetic vagal nerve signal. And so I think that's a downstream release, and we could actually include something like that as part of our store, part of this. 44:40 - Unidentified Speaker other element. So he and I are talking. 44:43 - George Goldsmith And I think when I get to over the next few weeks, Bob, we should probably get a call with him. Okay. 44:49 - Bob Dougherty But it's still photoplathismograph, right? 44:52 - Unidentified Speaker Yes. 44:52 - George Goldsmith Yeah. Then, then, yeah. I'm skeptical, but happy to talk. Yeah. 44:56 - Bob Dougherty Yeah. I know. 44:57 - George Goldsmith That's why you're a chief skeptic officer. 45:04 - Bob Dougherty Good. 45:07 - George Goldsmith Allan. Back to you on agenda. 45:11 - Allan Malievsky Yeah, I mean, I think we've worked through the majority of it. I think one of the things that I had on was obviously the ratify the pricing and tier logic. So, obviously, in the last few calls, we agreed on there being no seven-day trial or trial period. So, if everyone could just take a look at that, and as long as the number three on the agenda looks good. Good to everybody, and I don't hear from anyone. That's what's going to get set in stone. And then, number four, so a few of the decisions that kind of got surfaced while doing the narrative. So, what happens for, for instance, for Jacob, right? So, what happens if there's an unsaved art, right? So, if you free user subscribes, you know, do this user's artworks get resurrected in the gallery, your first month recovered, or are they actually gone? Then things like, you know, mapping the intention. So, if, for instance, somebody gets on, you know, and they've done the X, Y, and Z three times, do we want to switch it up and ask them more of a question? Like, you know, are you here to relax or, you know, kind of get focused or what have you? And have that be kind of loosely matched to somewhere on the wheel. So I would highly recommend. We can continue going, right? So it's, for instance, what do we do with no EEG? What about the library presentation? Right. So, you know, right now we don't one of the things on launch that we might have to contend with is, you know, we have a lot of music, but it might not just be presented in like you know, super robust way if we do it Spotify style, right? Like a list of tracks, because we'll have you know something like four tracks. So, one of the screens that might need you know special attention from Ale, from Sian, from everybody on this call. What does that library look like, right? And then, yeah, just a couple more questions for me and Sian. But I think those are food for thought and happy to talk about some of them or none of them. What kind of stands out? I think the unsaved art question is one I'm kind of curious about because it's not something I thought about before. Could I just inject here, Allan, for a second? 47:20 - George Goldsmith So what I'd like to do is to agree that what we just discussed on the kind of how the check-in and checkout works, if that could be implemented, I think that's a decision that I'd like to take because that'll stabilize so many other decisions. And I don't know how hard that would be to implement at all, but that's something that I think that more detailed. Check-in and education and helping them. I think if we do that, that's high value. I would not change anything about that on this version or for the next six months until we do these check-ins, Allan. So I wouldn't kind of create this other thing. I think getting people conditioned into that, just like, so that's another decision I would like to take, just to reduce complexity. And on those, George, like, 48:12 - Allan Malievsky please guys also feel free to go into Notion and just like mark a comment. All of that will get scooped up like part of the process. 48:18 - Unidentified Speaker If you leave a comment in Notion, it will be included in the next agenda and reflected. 48:23 - Jacob Fandel I could not access Notion on the agenda. 48:26 - Allan Malievsky I will add you now just to make sure. 48:29 - Eyal's iPhone Also, in that regard, I cannot log in to get the document you send. Allan, I'm not a big Microsoft user. So I couldn't find, I couldn't actually. 48:40 - Allan Malievsky Don't worry, I'll send you a hard copy. Don't worry about it. Okay. 48:44 - Eyal's iPhone Maybe you can add that to Notion as well. 48:46 - Jacob Fandel So we should just have one place for all these documents. We could do that. 48:49 - Allan Malievsky Yeah. The only thing is, Notion doesn't handle the images quite as well. So that was the only thing I liked how I was able to put the screen side by side with it. But I'm happy to do that as well. I mean, only reason I split it up. 49:05 - Jacob Fandel There's a one thing to your comment here. It would be great if when you think about the path and also like how does IL's art fit into this flow? Like, what's the outcome? Like, exactly, how do we envision it in the flow? That would make it. Where does it appear? 49:25 - Allan Malievsky block? Yeah, it would help Bob, me, and I'll too. 49:31 - Unidentified Speaker narrow exactly what needs to be done and get it ready for the version. 49:37 - Eyal's iPhone And I'll try in the next few days to implement, George, what you asked. I love the idea. 49:45 - Eyal's iPhone And how come I haven't thought about it? Yeah, I know. 49:49 - George Goldsmith It's the problem with those ideas, right? They have to be implemented. Yeah, it makes so much sense. 49:58 - George Goldsmith And a really quick comment. 50:00 - Jacob Fandel So I see in the talk, we set the price for $4.99 there. 50:05 - Unidentified Speaker I should just change it right? 50:07 - Allan Malievsky I this is the price that George and I have been talking about for the last couple of weeks I believe now it's 9.99 or something but I can change it to 499. This is an interesting conversation which should be had it's yours but what about the other wellness apps calm and whoever are you cheaper than them we are cheaper than endl uh which isn't exactly the same but Calm is the same price. Okay. 50:39 - Eyal's iPhone So that's a comparable, which we have to obey to exactly. 50:44 - Allan Malievsky Endless three times the price. 50:47 - George Goldsmith No, I think the issue is also going to be like this is, we're just putting a finger in the air on this. This will require some much deeper work before we lock in. I think that the big step up in value creation would be integration with the streaming service and figuring out how we do that after we do this first rev with boundless music. But that's a real step up in value. And so I think that's the place that we'll have to think about pricing. And Laura, you raised your hand again, I think. Or is that your old hand? Yeah, no, I think. 51:29 - Laura I think we're going to learn a lot once the product is live, what's working, what's not, and that will give good signals for pricing. But I've mentioned earlier, I think also a good decision could be testing founding membership, because that allows us to give a much bigger price point and to monetize on people who really believe in the mission and believe in the product. And that could have certain complementary benefits like get first access to boundless events or other benefits, which would give a bit more solid run. I don't want to call it run rate because I don't know how many users will land once we go live, but that might be a bit more sizable than $4.99 per month. 52:20 - George Goldsmith I think that's a really good point, Laura. And I think we should have a separate conversation very shortly about this. And in a way, it's a separate stream conversation with a smaller, different group. And then we'll kind of discuss it in this group. 52:36 - Jacob Fandel And I think, like, right now, you can always go into admin UI and just make them premium so they don't sort of just have access. They don't even have to do anything. So, you know, it could also be that that's a simple way forward. 52:50 - Unidentified Speaker Great. I don't know if this has come up. I don't remember seeing it in the doc. 52:57 - Bob Dougherty What's our stance on localization, internationalization? 53:05 - Bob Dougherty How many languages are we support, if any, currencies, that kind of stuff? 53:14 - George Goldsmith I assume the currency aspect is handled by the Apple store. Is that true or not? That's true, yes. Okay, so we take that problem and skip it for now. I think then the localization around language gets really interesting because there's one aspect of that we've not talked about at all yet in any detail, which is what is the welcoming sequence of screens that walk people through how to listen and so forth. That content needs to be developed. And that's where I think you get into sort of some of the localization issues and sizes of screens and so forth, what happens when it's in Hungarian and the size of So I think I would like again to probably launch with English and then to go from there. I think the second use case will be actually France because we are in discussions with Radio France on the 28th about having a citizen science project, and this be part of it on Radio France internet site and Radio France app. And so I think French would probably be the next one. And then we have to get into to the extent that we're using lead-ins. France wants to redo the intro. I think the intro could benefit from quite a bit of work, actually. And so, another idea in another part of town of the Boundless Conversations is whether there is a choice of intro that then links to the music. So it may be that that's where people may want to relax or calm. 55:04 - Unidentified Speaker Or, you know, I've been talking to someone about use of this in palliative care environments, and that's a different type of introduction. You know, for the Compass trial or for the COMPAS use case, so there may be a way to be thinking about the music segregated from the intro to the music. 55:26 - George Goldsmith And I think that that's probably a much more scalable approach. And then that would then lead. 55:31 - Bob Dougherty Well, the music's the music, but the localization of language would have to also be language versions of the lead-in, right? 55:42 - George Goldsmith So, I think we'll probably explore this initially in France. And Radio France has already identified somebody who they would like to do the intros. I also have another French speaking person. So, yeah, that's a great point. 55:57 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, probably not, it's probably out of scope for this version. But, yes, I do think we would want the music and the voice overlay separate. Things and have a mix on the fly, you know, or you can choose not to have a voice or pick which voice you want and which language. Yeah. 56:16 - Unidentified Speaker Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 56:19 - George Goldsmith So again, that's not for this first piece, but that's, in the probably fast follower. 56:31 - Jacob Fandel I think. 56:32 - George Goldsmith it's now, I have another call right now. I think that the Allan, I think everybody's committing, I hope, to get comments back by end of play on Monday. 56:44 - Unidentified Speaker I think we've made some important decisions. 56:47 - George Goldsmith There's some clarity of work to be done between now and then. I think that there's a separate conversation, Laura, that we should probably start a little bit around pricing model proposals that we could bring to the team and see what the implications would be for the app. But it sounds like we can take that as a later set of actions, given what Jacob said. So I have to cut off, but if there's anything else, Allan, for you or anyone else. No, I think that's it for me. 57:17 - Allan Malievsky I think we should probably open the floor for a second if anyone else has thoughts, just for something not reflected in the agenda or that we didn't talk about today and like that. George, bye. Yeah, I have to go too. 57:28 - Jacob Fandel I think we all do. Yeah, yeah. All right, then get out of here. 57:32 - Allan Malievsky All right.