VTC: Boundless app development Thu, Aug 13, 2026 0:01 - Unidentified Speaker Hey, how are you? 0:02 - Unidentified Speaker Hey, I'm good. How are you? 0:04 - Allan Yeah, no, too bad. Is not going to be able to join. 0:11 - George Goldsmith Yeah, I saw he's going to be late. Pardon me? 0:15 - Allan Bob is going to be late. Is not able to join. Oh, okay. Look. 0:23 - Unidentified Speaker Hey, Sian, they're all your children. 0:28 - Sian drawn the short straw this summer vacation. So, yeah, we've been to the park this morning and now back here now. That's juice. You've got juice. Okay. 0:47 - George Goldsmith She's not alone. I have a smoothie. There we are. 0:52 - Sian I put juice in it. Yes, my juice. 0:57 - George Goldsmith So, Allan and Sian, while we're waiting for others, I just received a link to a one-hour and 54-minute documentary about me. Oh, and there is a so I'm going to send that to you in case we can find content in it. And there is a One minute and 48 second trailer that features boundless, like, or talks a little bit about this, but it's basically a documentary on my life that has been just, I just have the full version is one hour and 54 minutes. And the one that has, they're looking to do a 30-minute piece. And then I have a one-minute and 48. So, I'll send you the link, Sian, so see how we might partner with it. It's the first episode of a new series on the pioneers of mental health, consciousness, and etc. And so, it's me, it's Tony Robbins as another episode, and Joe Dispens is another one. And apparently, they're going to go with mine first. So I think there might be interesting content, but it also for me was really interesting to see how it was filmed and kind of how they did it. It was a team of four people, two cameras and two audio people, and then a good friend of mine who's starting a new company funded by Sergey Brin. This is part of a series for their brand building. So I'll send that to you just so you can kind of get a sense of it. Hello, everybody. Suuvi, where are you back in this side of the world? 3:01 - Unidentified Speaker Yes, I'm back in LA. 3:03 - Unidentified Speaker Cool. Welcome back. Back. 3:06 - George Goldsmith Welcome back. Eyal is on a boat in Mallorca. I hope we're not in Mallorca, off Mallorca. And we are awaiting Bob. And I think, yeah. Yeah, just Bob. Over to you, Allan. I completed, I went last on the user doc, which I thought was done really, really well, everybody. And Allan, thank you for that. I think it was really well done. And I think some high-level questions, and then there's some more detailed things. But let's kind of obviously, Allan, this is your call. Off we go. 3:51 - Allan I think. In general, I kept this one a little bit lighter touch just because, you know, again, I'm curious what came out of the user narrative since last time we shared. We've included screens from ALS, live build, as well as from the app as it currently stands and whatever. And so I think the idea is now just to figure out how all these screens stitch together. I think that is, you know, there's a seam basically where the art is delivered. That we mark it as this is the conversion point. I think that's like I've even highlighted it in the user narrative. I think that's where we circle in on and just make it very smooth. I think that there are, yeah, maybe even before that, though, maybe we should just open the floor and see kind of what updates we've got. George, you've been busy. Jacob, well, they all and Bob are on their way. And like that. 4:46 - George Goldsmith Yeah, just so a general update on the Apple showable build. The meeting is on the 26th of August in LA at the LA Apple Studio. And what I'm trying to do is to see if it's possible to play what we're doing at the Apple Studio. In the Dolby Atmos. So I think that's something to, I'm working on with Ola behind the scenes. But that's when it would be great to have something to directionally show Ola. And then that will lead to a cascade of other things. And the no, it would be kind of a test run, probably, for some people at Apple, I think. So, but I do think we are what Ola thought is we should do their flagship studio in London as they launch it post-October. So, he was intrigued by that because they're using this as a kind of a venue for Apple. So, that's the only update I have on the top part of that. So, back to you. 6:07 - Allan Yeah, I don't know if others want to speak to, or Jacob, if you want to speak to this. Obviously, the C thing that's carryover, I think that's all done, right? Last I checked. Any of the other pieces jump out at you? 6:21 - Jacob Fandel Yeah, it was the C integration was done like this. 6:25 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah, I've actually marked it already. I don't know how it's snuck back in. 6:29 - Jacob Fandel No, I mean, it got done yesterday. 6:32 - Allan oh, we got done yesterday. Okay, well, cool. We'll look at that. 6:35 - Jacob Fandel Um, what's the performance like, 6:38 - Jacob Fandel Uh, so far, it's fine. I need to um build a version that um, you know, that I can send out to all of you and logging. But so far, on my device, it's has no issues at all, and I'm on an iPhone 13. Uh, so that core thing, like, yeah, just the core processing of that seems okay. Um, have to do a lot more testing and again, ship it out. What it doesn't use it to generate the art or anything like that, but it runs in parallel in the background just so we can test it and make sure that it still performs and doesn't blow up the phone, stuff like that, you know. And then the next step would be to align on. Well, how do we what's the art and how we want to generate it in the app? Like, what's that flow looking like, And then we can we can tie the pieces together. 7:37 - George Goldsmith I think this is a really important point you just made, Jaka, because um, I think we're still not locked in on what is the art that's being generated. Uh, that's some of my comments on the um user doc. And so I think this is going to be really important with AL. And we're working with AL to finalize kind of the business relationship between AIL and TAP. Sorry, Boundless, too many companies. 8:10 - Jacob Fandel And Bob is on now. So we also connected yesterday around some of these things around how to test it and such. But anyway, hey, Bob. 8:18 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. Great. Hey, Bob. 8:23 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I just want to clarify. So the C modded the mobile app. That was smooth. Of course, the output doesn't go anywhere except to a log file, right? Because there's no Art engine there. But if Jacob builds the new version with it built in, it will run logging performance metrics so we can see how it affects. Phone battery life and things like that. As John said, based on a couple of test runs, it doesn't look like it's going to have any impact. 9:02 - Jacob Fandel My goal is to get that out either today or tomorrow, so like late tonight or sometime tomorrow, push that out to test flight. There's some other minor updates in the app as well, I made since the last call around that's more like, the flow aligning that a little bit more with the mocks, where you have the onboarding screen always. If you unauthenticate it, then it goes to your login screen, you sign in, and then that takes you home. So it's slightly different than what it was before, but I don't really think you notice it, to be honest. But it's bit of a hard time and getting more the direction that the mocks are. 9:48 - George Goldsmith Great. 9:54 - Allan Okay, cool. So, I mean, it sounds like, I don't think Laura is on, but it sounds like we are still on track for the third week of August to show them something, right? 10:04 - Unidentified Speaker It'll depend on AIL. 10:06 - Allan Last week, yeah. 10:07 - Jacob Fandel You can figure out. Also, Bob and I talked about the we Bob mentioned that it's actually also possible to do the chaos engine in AMP because of this C integration. But I know that's probably not what we want to do, but it's also like a possibility. 10:24 - Unidentified Speaker Why wouldn't we want to do that? 10:26 - Jacob Fandel If we were going with IL's solution. 10:29 - Unidentified Speaker Okay, I see. See. 10:31 - Jacob Fandel But we could totally still do it as a it's not sorry, Bob. Go for it. 10:38 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I just don't see the point in putting in the F if it's not the final art we're going with. Yeah, yeah. 10:45 - George Goldsmith I guess the question I have is: the chaos engine is. So that's generating the images right now, or is it actually just developing the entropy score? So, what exactly is, so I thought the chaos engine was developing the kind of the data stream, if you will, that we're using to drive the art. And then the artist would sit on top of it, or is they all substituting? 11:18 - Bob Dougherty So, what would Jacob and I call the chaos engine, literally that's what the Ripos named, is both. It receives raw EEG data from the device, processes it, and generates the art, and then sends the images back. What we've pulled out is the signal processing part of it. So that first part. And so that is now in the C module on device. And so the art part, I don't think, is worth porting to the device. One, it's not trivial because it's a Python package. And so it's a little more involved in terms of porting the code to iOS. But two, it's, you know, if that's not what, you know, if we're pretty well decided, we're going to go with AL's part, then I don't see the point. Yes. Just still runs. It still works that part. So now the data is streaming both to that server as usual. But also being run through the C module for performance testing. 12:26 - George Goldsmith Okay, then what is the integration of the first part or the C with Eyal's work? And are we comfortable that that will, that that can be done? 12:38 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, that's that's true. The C module outputs the same numbers that his web app is getting from the web Bluetooth. Muse. So, I mean, there's a little bit of code to wire to connect the plumbing, but it's ready to go. 13:00 - Unidentified Speaker Great. 13:02 - George Goldsmith And what is BLE pairing? Sorry for that. 13:09 - Bob Dougherty That's Bluetooth pairing. I'm not sure which Bluetooth that is referring to, because I mean, we already do Bluetooth pairing with the Muse. 13:16 - Allan maybe for this is just for other devices. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question. This is, I mean, obviously, we can do anything right now with the health kit integration, but I think with stuff like Aura, I'm sure that there are a couple here and there that we might eventually want to look at. And yeah, I don't, this is more just a, you know, how we're thinking about future devices, if at all. It's, you know, we don't have to spend time on it right now. 13:42 - Unidentified Speaker Great. 13:43 - Allan Okay, so we're now on the engine piece, Allan, I guess. 13:47 - Allan Yeah, and I mean, I think that there are kind of a bunch of questions both in the user app, user narrative, as well as here. I think they range from, you know, everything from, you know. Are we agreed on the art and how it sort of figures and gets delivered in the flow of the app, of the rest of the app, to smaller things like this, like, you know, when people are selecting, their feeling state, do they get a quick glimpse of, you know, the color wheel and the feelings wheel, things like that. So I think it would have been kind of helpful to have A all on. It's okay. I think it's. Fine to do some of this asynchronously. But yeah, I am just wondering what people's experience has been, poking around the latest live build, if there's anything we want to say on this right now. 14:36 - Jacob Fandel Sorry, just one thing I forgot to update. I did make it work with the subscriptions. So it goes through, so you don't get the error anymore. So you can pick either monthly or 499 or yearly 49 if we want to keep it or not. But that goes through. And if you're using test flight, you won't get charged. Excellent. 14:58 - George Goldsmith Okay. And what about just while we're in that point? There was one point made of do we want to support Google as well as Apple login. My view is in general, I'd like to keep this in the Apple ecosystem rather than the Google ecosystem until we decide what to do with Android. Do you think that creates too many barriers to ease of use or people paying? 15:28 - Jacob Fandel I mean, everybody needs a, I mean, it's easy enough to hide it, right? Yeah. So I think that's your call. I don't think it matters. It comes to getting approval from Apple. Like, they probably would love to see just having Apple log in. And if we do an Android version, we can just only show the Google login. 15:54 - George Goldsmith Yeah. I would keep it Apple. So I just have general concerns about Google products and security and then privacy. And so. I think given the quality of the data and our kind of one of the other things, it's kind of where does privacy policy show up? They're not going to get into that detail today, but I think keeping it in the Apple ecosystem and with their privacy kind of focus for me would make sense on launch. So hiding the Google thing at this point, the Google SSO. I mean, unless there are people who are against that on the call, because I just wanted to raise that perspective. 16:39 - Jacob Fandel I don't think it's a problem when it comes to the privacy. I think that's that's safe enough. And it's not like we're uploading the data to Google. It's only the mechanism. It goes through once you're authenticated, it still goes through our the same platform as Apple. But it's it's easy enough to hide it. 17:01 - George Goldsmith So if you feel like that's a better like let's hide it for now and then we can kind of if it's easy to hide, let's just hide it for now and then we'll kind of figure out a username and password. 17:15 - Jacob Fandel So it's only like Apple login? 17:20 - George Goldsmith No, I don't think so. I think we could have our own region. Other points of view on that before we call out a decision? 17:36 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 17:37 - George Goldsmith Not here. Cool. 17:40 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 17:41 - Allan Cool. That's awesome. So, the membership and the paywall, I think we talked about it last time. I mean, there is a degree to which we may be underselling at $4.99. I think we have to still work that out. George and I are fiddling with a budget document right now, which should help us, you know, get closer to that. But for the moment, we've got provisionally $499 a month or $50 yearly. You know, I think at some point, Jacob, I don't know. What your experience with this is and, you know, when it's the right time to lock down a price. You know, I kind of defer to the group on that. I don't really know how to think about that. 18:21 - George Goldsmith I guess what I'd like to do, building on what you just said, Allan, is to know what the drop dead date is on pricing for the app. And so when does that need to get locked? And then go backwards from there around, okay, we need to get it done by then. Because there's also a membership model that some apps have used. Laura pointed it out, I pointed it out in the user doc where you can get a lifetime subscription if you're in the first 500. So I think. So, when do we have to lock that down, Yako, from a development point of view, an app submission and so forth? 19:01 - Jacob Fandel I can. Currently it's been set up so we can enable uh uh turn on and off from the admin UI the three prices, the 999, 499, and yearly 49. So that can be just a flag that you want to turn on and off how you how you want. 19:20 - George Goldsmith Um but do we have to lock in like for when it goes live in the app store? Um It's sort of what is the deadline for this to be shown to them as okay, ready to go live? And then therefore we have to lock that all in. 19:37 - Jacob Fandel I mean, that's that's when we ask for review from Apple. And that needs to be part of that. But then afterwards, you can still change the price and ask for another review if we feel that. So it's not like you're. Fixed forever. 19:59 - George Goldsmith oh yeah I'd imagine that but And do we have, so you said it would you or Bob said it would be probably a couple weeks for app store approval and back and forth. 20:12 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. 20:12 - George Goldsmith So I'm just thinking about the right to left scheduling on this. So if we want this to launch, would we do kind of friends and family through App Store or Test Flight? Is TestFlight too cumbersome to do 100 people, for example? 20:29 - Jacob Fandel I mean, it's definitely a little bit harder, right? That you have to download Test Flight. But that's the only way you can do it. It's a little easier on Android, but we're not on Android. So it has to be maybe it's just like a silent release or something like that, where you don't announce it anywhere. It just goes to the app store and people can try it out. And then you have a release. 20:54 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I think Test Flight. Will be a barrier for some people. It's just more complicated. 21:02 - George Goldsmith So basically, have it on the store. It's not promoted in any way. It's accessible. We can give people links to that. People might find it, but that's the way to get the initial feedback. I guess that's sort of the initial feedback is what I'm thinking about from friends and family. 21:25 - Jacob Fandel What I can do similar to what we talked about last time is we can ask for a review from Apple and get the process started and it won't be released to the App Store until we decide to release it. 21:38 - George Goldsmith Okay. Yeah. So I think when Laura joins or even before that, hi Laura, good afternoon. I think what we really need is a sort of master schedule of all the interdependencies and when we're ready to do that. And to just make sure we have a good launch plan in terms of what needs to be done by when, kind of right to left from a date where we want to have feedback. So that'll be a Laura action and then that will drive some of these other decisions. Excellent. 22:27 - Allan Okay. Yeah, I'm already seeing some of these. We can then turn to some outstanding questions in the user doc at the end if we have time. The no EEG art question, I think this is really just an ongoing discussion between Jacob, Bale, and Bob, right? How do we give somebody something meaningful if they're not connecting any devices, if it's their first time, they're meeting something in passing? Is there a process for something like that? You know, obviously, we've discussed some solutions, you know, ranging from maybe they have an Apple Wash or something to nothing. But yeah, I think it is going to be an important and not so rare of an edge case. And to have something kind of tight in place would be good. Even if it is just, hey, if you don't have a device, answer three rapid fire questions. You know, that's it. You know, something like that. And then, you know, compare it to how long you've walked that day. And I don't know, something. 23:25 - George Goldsmith I guess the can we use just a simulation and not rely on any other data sources and just have some kind of more random generation? Because I think that would be kind of easier. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think. 23:47 - Bob Dougherty certainly I think this is a product user experience decision. Yeah, not a technical one. 23:54 - George Goldsmith Right. But I guess, Bob, we could simulate something, right? We could Yeah, AL already has a simulator in this webinar. That's what I thought. Yeah. So I think that's the answer for that, frankly, right now. 24:14 - Jacob Fandel I think the big unknown to me is still like, how do we want to generate the art? What should it be that flow art? 24:21 - Unidentified Speaker Like, I think it goes back to Yeah, I think that is a huge question. 24:25 - Jacob Fandel Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like where I'm getting more and more blocked on, you know, like, what is the direction, exactly what we want to do so we can implement it and have it ready. 24:40 - George Goldsmith Could we have a conversation about that for a couple minutes, Allan, without AL and then use that way to inform AL? I'm talking to him tomorrow, it appears. 24:51 - Unidentified Speaker Let's talk about it. 24:53 - George Goldsmith My thought is the following: we have like these different things going on that are needing to get more aligned and simplified. So I think last time we were not going I know last time we agreed that when someone engages with the check-in and checkout, as they move to a corner, there will be a new color emerging or a new quadrant, a new color emerging. And as they do open, close, there will be kind of a change to the underlying image. And that's the check-in. I think then there is that. Piece of art that they chose from the gallery that has some type of impact or input from the EEG or the simulation. And the piece of art, in my mind, is not this journey through different mood states, which we don't have any way of actually doing, but the piece of art is the image that they chose that is modified through a combination of signal and the color palette is determined by the start and the end that they chose in the intro and out check. And so the piece of art is actually the image they chose from the gallery that's a moving image that's time-lapse that is like here's your experience in 10 seconds. And there could be a final picture, still image. But I don't think we want to have the art being this kind of movement through all these different mood states because I don't know how we would do that. So I think that's where we start right now. And it simplifies things. And the piece of art is the EEG modified or the MEEG-informed. Image that was chosen as the starting point and arrives at the end point in colors. And that we really look at the complexity score, much like you're doing now with a chaos engine, as, for example, increasing clarity or something over the vision. But we have to really align with all on this. But I feel like we need to not have this. Kind of like journey across the quadrants because I think even if it's a piece of art, it's kind of spurious. So, comments, everybody. 27:22 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, yeah, I agree. Especially about not trying to show emotion path when, you know, I think it just creates more user dissatisfaction when it's, even if it's right, it could still. I don't know. I just said my intuition is that it's not a great user experience. And I like the art, modified art that the user selects. Yeah. 27:49 - George Goldsmith Okay. So we have a second. Is there any opposition to this decision and conversation I need to have with Eyal? 27:57 - Jacob Fandel No, the only terrifying question I have, I think I like what you're saying, George. I think I'm like 95% there. My clarifying question is: you mentioned something around the time-lapse anesthetic image. Is that can you elaborate a little bit more on the time-lapse? 28:17 - George Goldsmith Yeah. Well, so if there is an image chosen that is modified in color palette, and then there's also sort of this resolution of clarity that we've done in the chaos engine. So could we take that resolution, that kind of clarity resolution based on the EEG input and apply it to his piece of art? So right now, for example, you've been sharing three time points, right? Here is the image of time point two minutes, seven minutes, ten minutes, for example. And in order to do that, I'm assuming you have something running continuously. In the background, and you're choosing two, seven, and ten. So, what I was suggesting is: could you do a time-lapse where you're sampling the output of the chaos engine as it's represented in the piece of art? Could you sample that every 20 seconds for a moving image? Right. And so. Is that that's how I thought of what I meant by the time lapse. So it's basically looking at the data stream, its impact on the art, taking a snapshot. The snapshots get concatenated, and the longer experience may have a longer duration between those snapshots. And we end up with a kind of visual image of your journey that you can share with the snap final snapshot being the last picture we take in the time lapse. That's me being somewhat inarticulate, but hopefully it gets the point across for everybody to make better. 30:00 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, yeah, that's that's totally possible and not hard. Yeah. 30:07 - George Goldsmith Because I think creating this kind of movement over time is important, right? Giving people a sense that something happened. So a static image is sort of like a ta-da. But I think if we have this kind of sense of I've been in a journey and here is something that's changing. Now we have to see how sensitive, you know, so does the time lapse look like it's changing 2% or 60%. I have no idea what that's going to look like, So I think that's something we'll have to work on. But I don't know if how Eyal will feel about giving up this journey through emotions. The way I will handle it with him is that's downstream when we have more evidence of how we would do that and what level of granularity we might use. But right now, I think it could be a real turn off for people because it doesn't feel real. 31:00 - Jacob Fandel Yeah, it doesn't prevent us from doing that later if we capture all this data. This could be the first iteration, right? And we're like, well, we have to go through one step first, and then we can iterate over and get some feedback on what works. 31:16 - George Goldsmith And by the way, this is how we engage people, right? It's help us create this. We're building a tool together. Right? And I think there's a real sort of citizen science component to this, etc. So I think how we market it and kind of promote it could be really also important in this. 31:34 - Jacob Fandel So, Bob, do you, from your understanding here as well, did you feel like, okay, we can take a snapshot in time and then have a bunch of images and stitch them together, like fading in over each other to get this like moving. Update, or are you thinking like more of a video you kind of do? 31:53 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I actually built there is a version of this that's not being used right now in the current chaos engine. And there, there it's easy because the patterns are generated by noise, and you can just evolve the noise by just incrementing one of the knobs that's in that algorithm. And you can make it go as fast or slow as you want. But if we're going to use AL's art, I think it would be up to him to tell exactly how that works. And it could be generating a bunch of images and then morphing them together. Or I think he has a similar thing where he has a knob where he can evolve his art and adjust the speed, make it go faster than real time. Yeah. Yeah. 32:44 - George Goldsmith So I think this is a really important thing to lock down in the next few days, frankly, because this is, I think, really key and it actually simplifies the app. It simplifies the user experience. It clarifies what comes out at the end. And it's more aligned with what the original vision was. 33:04 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 33:05 - Jacob Fandel So for the very beginning, we like we're thinking when the users say like start session. Do they then get to pick an image first? Right? So to pick an image from the gallery, say next. Then you have the mood check-in, and that changes the colors a little bit based on what the user is doing. 33:22 - Unidentified Speaker Yes. 33:23 - Jacob Fandel Like becomes the source. 33:24 - George Goldsmith Do we have to become the source color palette? I'm sorry, what did you say? 33:30 - Jacob Fandel Do we have a checkout as well after the session? 33:32 - George Goldsmith Yes, we absolutely have to have a checkout because that gives us a from to on the color palette. Same model, it's the same screen. It's just the checkout, right? And if they stay the same, the colors of the image, not the dynamism of the image, stays the same. If it's different, it morphs from one quadrant or one place to another based on Eyal's color palette, based on his research summaries, right? So, you know, if I'm. Yellow to start and teal to end, what you'll see is a movement toward teal in the color palette that's being used. But the imagery, the clarity of the imagery or the movement of the imagery would be based on what's kind of in the noise measure in the chaos engine, but it's just working with a different piece of a different image to start, is how I would envision it. But again, this is, I think this is why we need to have Eyal on a call, but I think I need to prepare him because he's really attached to what he's done. Yeah. 34:52 - Bob Dougherty And there's nothing stopping him. He already has the EEG processing. Logic. There's nothing stopping him from creating his own art in some other context that does that. 35:08 - Allan Cool. This is a little, I mean, maybe this is just doubling back too far, and it's more of an artistic question. When I originally you know, this is going to deliver some app, some art to you, you know, from your aesthetic preferences and your EEG signal, I didn't actually imagine. You literally selecting your art style from a dropdown menu. And I think that's an interesting thing to see how various styles kind of interpret the same data. But I wonder how much is gained versus lost by, you know, not even necessarily completely doing away with the dropdown. I think you should still be able to play with it if you want, but hiding kind of that selection almost in the question series. They might encounter. So it's obviously not a perfect system, but to not have it be so, I guess, rote, because I think part of the magic is what will it deliver to you based on, you know, what seems at least initially kind of inscrutable signals, right? So, like, what does it see about you that gave it and then made it deliver this to you versus that? And if the answer is, oh, I chose it from a drop-down menu, I. Feel that something is lost. Yeah. Anyway, that's my one take on all the artwork in general. Right. 36:31 - George Goldsmith So, another view of this, Allan, is so I don't, I think we're back to trying to predict emotions with some signal or something, right? So, what I'm wondering, an alternative to what you've said, which kind of splits the difference, is that. The gallery is hidden and it's randomly chosen without repeats over some cycle. And it is a surprise. 36:57 - Allan Essentially, functionally like that, right? Just some, I don't think that to walk through feeling states. I do not, I don't believe that we have the, we just don't, right? Everybody looks different. But I do think that any kind of mechanism. Just not visible, it's not mapped to it, it doesn't have to be, you know, scientifically sound, but just something that hides it and makes it just a little surprise, a surprise. Yeah, that's missing in the dropdown. 37:22 - Bob Dougherty I think this is a great discussion. And to be to be honest, even if we did have a perfect algorithm for evaluating someone's emotions, I'm not sure you could select art for them. Like some people, when they're sad, want to see, you know. Shocking horror art and some people want to see calming art right it's it's personal so but yeah I like I certainly I think it could you know we could you know do this kind of uh selection based on the data whatever the data are um not try you know just just this is the eng data it could be right it could you know you could have the headset off and it's random but it'll still select something and if you had it on you could honestly say this was based on your brain waves the selection, but not say anything more about it. 38:09 - Unidentified Speaker I love it. 38:10 - Bob Dougherty I think that solves it. 38:11 - George Goldsmith Yeah. Yeah, I think that this is, I agree with you, Allan, because it adds kind of a, and I love Laura's just sort of general drumbeat of let's not add like more to the user experience. Let's kind of keep it simple, straightforward. And I think the gallery is useful from AL's perspective of how many things are there and like the beauty of what he's created. But I think that I'd rather have us select it for people and have it be a surprise back to like almost like it's a visual dissonance. We don't know exactly what's coming out, but it's going to come out and it'll be, it'll reflect your state. 38:53 - Allan Yep. And I think even after the like, if you really want a dropdown menu, look, people are different. Everybody wants to use it differently. I think maybe just, you know, have them do like a full session first, right? At least. So like, you know, you get that impact and then you can sort of, oh, it's like just a tool for you to play with. And then once there are many, you it's more of like a featured list. Check out other people's artworks rather than these are the artworks you can select from 39:18 - George Goldsmith Right. It could even go into profile downstream. Like, what are your, you know, rank order your favorites? 39:25 - Unidentified Speaker Absolutely. 39:27 - Laura I also think it is. Oh, sorry, go, Allan. Oh, no, no. 39:30 - Allan I was going to say, in the meantime, what you guys have suggested makes perfect sense to me and makes me feel a lot better about the whole thing. So, all right, table. 39:36 - Unidentified Speaker That's what we're here for, Allan. 39:38 - Allan Yeah, thank you. Sorry, Laura. 39:42 - Laura I also feel now that it's much easier to ship a product with AI. A lot of new apps, they have these different iterations that you can click around. So, new users, they just test out everything and they kind of check out. So, if over time you're getting more and you're surprised with visual experience. That creates a pullback into the app because you don't know what you're going to expect and it changes over time. So I think it's quite interesting. 40:09 - Unidentified Speaker Cool. 40:10 - George Goldsmith Decision taken. My job is to communicate it. 40:13 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 40:14 - Jacob Fandel So clarifying, yeah, I just want to I love this. 40:17 - Unidentified Speaker Jacob, I love it. 40:20 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 40:20 - Jacob Fandel So we're now moving more towards like, okay, let the art be, the gallery be somewhat randomly picked. After the session. Yeah. 40:30 - Jacob Fandel Do we feel like, 40:34 - George Goldsmith So it has, well, I guess. Oh, I guess you generate the data and then you randomly choose and then represent the data. Art's created at the end from the data stream. You're absolutely right. Sorry, Jacob. 40:51 - Jacob Fandel Okay. So does that mean that it is? Deterministic, or is it completely random based on the data? 40:58 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I think one, yeah, it could be either, but I think it could be deterministic based on the EEG data, which, you know, if we're not, we're not, which is effectively random for practical purposes. Yeah, but but then you can say it is selected based on your brainwave data. 41:20 - George Goldsmith That's awesome. 41:22 - Laura And we discussed it before, but what would happen if after post-checkout self-assessment is different than what EEG data is showing? What would be the winning source of truth for the art to visualize the quadrant? 41:41 - George Goldsmith So, Laura, sorry, we made a decision, I think, earlier. So. Basically, we have two things. We have the transformation of the image and we have the color palette. The color palette is determined by the start point and the end point based on Eyal's art engine. So that would be separate from the EEG. It wouldn't conflict with the EEG data. So the transformation of the image would be driven by the data and the color palette would be chosen would be done by the input and the intro and the outro check-in, or the check-in check-out. So the manipulation of the image from a movement perspective, clarity, all of that. And then, again, this is me talking as if this is easy to do, but it was to separate out the color layer from the image layer of complexity. So that's what the intention is. Now, if that could be built is another question. But I know that AL was kind of using color palette as being driven by the check-in. So my view is that there's a journey, check-in, check-out, which is your self-report. And then there's the data layer, which is looking at the complexity and the kind of shape of the imagery. 43:05 - Laura Okay, makes sense. And I'm happy we have a transcript to, we can reference the user narrative document to make sure that it manifests. 43:18 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 43:21 - Allan I forgot which item we handed because we've covered like three things from one item. 43:29 - Unidentified Speaker I apologize. 43:29 - Allan No, no, it's it's fine. It's so fine. So the openness end-to-end, that's for Sian, me, and Jacob. That's just that on our screens right now, we don't seem to we don't have a z-axis, so we just have to make sure that that's added and then kind of maps correctly to all the other functions that rely on it. 43:44 - George Goldsmith What do you mean by a z so we're not going to just do the two check-ins? Because I think that's just so we're adding a z-axis or are we just openness? 43:53 - Allan It's just the openness thing. Isn't that there? It's there. No, no, no, it is. I'm talking this is for us on our screens, guys. That's just, it's a screens issue. Like on our screen, this is don't guys. 44:06 - Unidentified Speaker What do On your, I don't understand it. 44:09 - Allan So, in our user narrative, when you go through it, our design screen currently doesn't have the openness. It's just a reminder for me. 44:19 - George Goldsmith Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. Because I'd like what. I really like what Eyal has done around the openness and compression. Oh, here's why we can't choose the art at the end. So when we do openness, you choose the gallery, and then you may have this design of flow or whatever else. That is what's kind of in the quadrant right currently. And then when you do openness, it either expands or closes. There's an image of expansion or closure, but I think the image is based on what you chose in the gallery. So, you know, I'm pretty sure that's the way it works. So that is something we have to talk about. Do you choose the art? Yeah, how we represent openness if we're waiting to choose it based on EEG data on the art image. So that's just something we'll have to talk about, but right now it's based on the gallery you chose. 45:27 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I see the issue. Yeah, I mean, it could be an independent image, right? It could just be just an image to make that. Selection. 45:37 - George Goldsmith I think that's, yeah, I think, Bob, that's a nice way to do it, right? Yeah. Yeah. You just say that's the colors, and then you know, there's an openness of some kind of background in the arts, the surprise at the end. It's, the toy inside. 45:52 - Jacob Fandel I think that's a good first step, right? Like, I know we will iterate over this a thousand times, but I think that's a good first step, actually. 46:04 - Unidentified Speaker Good. 46:05 - Allan Sounds like a decision. Cool. I just had a quick question about this: the calibration wizard. I know, Bob, you left a couple marks in the user narrative just about how we signal the need for that to the user. I don't know if anything has moved. There's been any discussions about that. It's just something I flagged for myself and may have already been, yeah, a decision made. 46:32 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I don't remember my exact comments, but I do think I'm not sure what it adds other than user burden. 46:44 - Allan We don't, is there like, yeah, there's not a protocol for like, hey, you sort of flag it to the user and like take a beat or something. Yeah, I don't know. Because you can just interpolate data if it's lost at any point, right? And sort of cover it. So, yeah. 47:01 - George Goldsmith Well, the calibration engine I thought was his eyes open, eyes closed. So it was essentially doing what sometimes they do with the EG at the beginning. Yeah. 47:12 - Allan If your signal gets, you know, it's not strong or something, you need to reset. So the question is. 47:17 - Bob Dougherty Oh, the signal meter. Yeah. I do think there might be something like that. I mean, what I've done, in other projects is just four dots. Red, green, or blue. Sorry, red, yellow, green for, you know, no signal, weak signal, strong signal, just for somebody to be able to know that the muse is touching their head, basically. 47:47 - Unidentified Speaker Cool. 47:48 - George Goldsmith But I think the calibration wizard with these tasks that Eyal was suggesting, and I guess. Yes, tasks, no tasks. I think it creates a little bit of a burden, and we're creating art, not EEG data for scientific purposes necessarily. 48:07 - George Goldsmith Okay, cool. 48:09 - Jacob Fandel We did have some calibration added at one point where you could see the signal. It's hidden in the air at the moment, similar to what Bob was talking about, because it's like, is it more like a distraction than anything else? 48:22 - Bob Dougherty So then I think just, yeah, again, I can help with this, but just the four dots kind of inconspicuous. If you don't care, you know, you don't, it doesn't bother you. But if you want really high quality signal, you'll fiddle with the headset until you get four greens. 48:40 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 48:41 - Unidentified Speaker All right. 48:41 - Allan That makes sense to me. Sure. This is more for me and George. I just realized one thing is like we really never went through and had Dom like, you know, name all the tracks and so forth because we talked about releasing sort of individual bits for paying users. Right. So, you know, didn't get integrated into the longer arcs or what have you. So this is just a flag for us. This is called a dev call, but we also, it's like sort of a team call as well. So, stuff like this. 49:11 - George Goldsmith May I also just give a quick update to the team? I think I sent all of you, but I don't think know if who's done it or not. Meanwhile, in another part of Boundless, we are developing what is the optimal binaural representation of the music. And another member of the team, who I don't think any of you have met other than maybe Allan, or definitely Allan, is Laurent Dupuy. Laurent is the spatial sound engineer. And one of the things we're looking at is there are different ways to develop a binaural mix that would be in the app. We don't have any control over it on streaming services. And there's a study that he has put into a web app that basically wear headphones and we're basically using doing a user study that we'll promote out there, which is help us design the optimal sound experience. And um, and that is great. Suuvi, we'll um we'll gut-sketch you with Laurent. Um, and but I think that this is a really um, it's another part of our promise to people: is if you use the app, you're have actually state-of-the-art, user-tested, binaural, spatial, um, and lossless all in the app that you won't get anywhere else. So if you could do that, if you haven't seen it, just like tell me and I will resend it. He's looking for feedback. Actually, I think he's gotten his, he's actually will have a next rev of this today, I think. So I'll talk to him. But this is going out to quite a number of people. 51:04 - Jacob Fandel If you're speaking, Ellen, we can't hear you. 51:09 - Allan I was just saying, good. Definitely will look for that. Check that out. 51:15 - Unidentified Speaker I will to its top of people's email. 51:17 - Allan Is Sian still on No, Sian, is she here? Sian is here. Sian, did you. Are you? You were working on something with the website. I don't know if you still want to show people before we all hop off. But yeah, so from the, I a little decisions back, we're stripping down the site to make it a little bit more of a, you know, kind of confusion campaign style and ahead of the 10th. And Sian has been working on some nice landing page visuals for us. So I'm going to hand it off there. Am I still sharing? I am still sharing. 51:54 - Unidentified Speaker You're sharing CNN. 51:56 - George Goldsmith I'm sharing CNN. 51:58 - Unidentified Speaker Good. 51:59 - Sian Can you see my screen? Okay. So the idea being like this is going to be a holding page for people to sign up. And we, I mean, I'll show you first basically. So as you scroll through, you're almost like scrolling through a video. And it really illustrates the boundless experience. Obviously, there's a few other things that need to be done, but this is the rough idea of the experience that we want people to sign up for. So, yeah, I mean, there's still a few things that need to be done, polish up the last bit, but this essentially is almost inquisitive for people to see. 52:47 - Allan and yeah, and like that, so I think here's where we would basically obviously capture the uh yeah, capture uh contact details, etc. You know, direct people to our social campaigns and like that. And I think uh one thing that we would also have is you know just some dates, you know, next to the abouts, etc. As they become available and like that but I think the yeah the imagery is really beautiful it uses a lot of our you know popular a lot yeah our colors etc and cymatics so sean I I um yeah beautiful yeah I like it cool really beautiful um yeah can we click on what about is oh, about is the um just the normal page that we've got up now, but I'll probably hide that just to get people intrigued. That's the mystery. 53:44 - Sian Okay, really cool. 53:47 - Allan Yeah, we can we can hide that page, it's not an issue. 53:51 - Allan I wonder if what we might do is. When you're comfortable with it, Sian, and you know, definitely obviously send it around to the group. If the group has ideas, I think the next step would be to just send to AL for a quick review for his editions, right? Whatever he might, cool stuff he might do to the code. And then let's try to get it up next week as we ramp up with a couple video releases. That would be the end of next week. 54:18 - Sian Well, the actual main hero. Image is actually a video, it's not built out of code. So, we were do a load of different code elements, but it just made the site way too slow. It was too hard to resize on mobile. And at least with this one, you know, when we do send it to Eyal, if he prefers to basically create it himself, I did ask AI to like, take inspiration from Eyal's previous work in order to make it. But yeah, I'll definitely send it over to him for his feedback and see what he says. 54:56 - Allan Yeah. I mean, at this stage, you know, we kind of keep it simple, stay nimble. I personally and visually, I like it a lot. Think the only thing that I would wonder about is the actual screen where people are, actually signing up. If we can introduce some movement, whether it's a logo in the background, just so because it goes from very dynamic to very static, that would be my one feedback. But the video, everything, the visuals all look exactly right to me. 55:22 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah, I can probably animate a gradient or something like that. 55:25 - Allan So something moving, a little bubbling, you know, a little something, right? Yeah. 55:29 - Sian That would be. Before you have to go? 55:33 - Laura I love website. I think it's epic. My only question is our initial logo and the vinyl album was a bit more over-indexed to pink shades. And now we're shifting towards ember and the website has bluer tones. I wonder if we want to connect them visually or we're choosing this as a new direction. So we're going forward. 55:58 - George Goldsmith I don't think you're choosing us a new direction. We have a fairly broad palette, which was chosen for different applications, but Sian, this is your wheelhouse, not mine. 56:07 - Sian So I'd be, I can definitely introduce more pinks, a few more pink hues, just to tie in that little bit more. But nobody, well, people aren't going to see the vinyl on this page. This is simply just like a coming soon page, and then once we're through, that's when the vinyl is have its own dedicating page for people to be able to essentially check out and order online if that's what they want to do. 56:39 - Allan Okay, then that makes sense. I think it's a totally valid question, though. It's if it will. You know, we have a very broad palette, right? I mean, the palette is literally dusk and dawn. Like, that actually happens to be most colors, right? And then parchment, this kind of like feeling like, you know, everything's written, it's very analog, whatever. You know, there's an open argument. I need to go, everybody. Thank you. Some colors, you know, across the board. If folks have ideas about that and so forth, it maybe is worth another discussion. But maybe let's call it for this one. Laura, Sian, you know, you guys and I should, and suuvi, we will, we'll talk about colors, and otherwise, we'll let everybody go, including Bob, who has been very patient. Thanks. 57:22 - Unidentified Speaker See ya. 57:23 - Allan All right, thank you guys for everything. Anything, anything else before we let everybody go? 57:32 - Sian No, I'll try and get this version over to you today or tomorrow, actually. Took me ages to figure out how to do the video. I'm very conscious about file sizes as well, because you still want it to load on, you know, bad internet. 57:49 - Allan Well, I can imagine it's not easy. Allan, yes. 57:54 - suuvi Very quick question. I mentioned this in the chat, but it might have gotten lost. I feel like now, with so many things happening, I would love. Even just from the events and activations standpoint, to a master calendar with all the key things available for everybody, just so we have an overview of everything that's going on. Because I have it written in my calendar, but I'm not aware of all the other moving parts. 58:20 - Allan So, and I think vice versa. I think 100%. And I think that's one thing. You know, hopefully Laura will be able to help us with just on kind of connecting all the contingencies. In the meantime, I know, Laura, we're still working through a couple of items. It might make sense for us to, you know, do something kind of quick and dirty and drop like key dates into an Excel or something, send it around and just have people edit, you know, make whatever, and literally just have it be a dates thing, right? Like, this is where we go for, you know, basically source of truth. 58:54 - Laura Yeah, I finished my project tomorrow. We might carry over on Monday, but then I should have a lot more time to start getting into the rhythm of things so we can connect next week and talk about it. Yeah. 59:08 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 59:09 - Laura Great. 59:11 - suuvi That makes sense. All right, guys. I have nothing else. I'm tangle with a printer one last time, and that's it. 59:21 - Unidentified Speaker Good luck, dangling, and amazing work. I really love the website and it's really cool. 59:27 - Laura Yeah, I like the opening visual. It's really captivating. 59:31 - suuvi It has a little bit of like the Padmas and Baba being born from the lotus, you know? 59:36 - Unidentified Speaker So, yeah. 59:37 - Laura Anyway, all right, guys, I'll see you later. Yep. 59:40 - Laura Bye-bye.