VTC: George, Allan, Bob, Eyal Tue, Jan 13, 2026 0:04 - Bob Dougherty Oh, happy new year. 0:06 - George Goldsmith Yeah, happy new year. I have been deep in a bunch of things and awaiting a missive from our friends at ARPA-H. 0:17 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. 0:22 - George Goldsmith No, no, no inside news there. No, no, not at all. I'll be reaching out to other people. I guess if you hear anything through Ozmind, it would be good to know. Just to see when they get around to stuff. I'm expecting it's this week or next. 0:38 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. 0:40 - George Goldsmith That some people will hear then the rest will just end up guessing. 0:43 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we haven't heard nothing in our mind either. 0:50 - Bob Dougherty Good evening, y'all. 0:51 - George Goldsmith Hey, how are you? Good. I love the geographic reach from Tel Aviv to Portland and San Francisco today, with a minor up in Paris. 1:06 - George Goldsmith I don't think you've met Jacob. Have you met Jacob? 1:08 - Jacob Birk No, I don't think we have. No, I'm Jacob. I'm based in San Francisco. I'm technical. Good to meet you. 1:15 - Eyal Gever Yeah, I'm a technical nerd here. 1:17 - Jacob Birk More of the software development side and those kind of things. I've been working with George and Bob for quite some time now. For many, many years and George, since compass. 1:33 - Eyal Gever Good to meet you. 1:33 - Jacob Birk Yeah, likewise heard a lot about you. I hope good things. 1:39 - Eyal Gever Only good things. 1:40 - George Goldsmith Speaking if it weren't a Oh, come on. We're continuing to speak certainly. So I guess I don't know where Alan is. Um, but I will find out. 1:56 - George Goldsmith So I think this was a conversation of giving a few updates, but also hearing what your thoughts are. You know, you've listened to the album, you've had some thoughts, but you've been heads down. And I'm so grateful, even spending this time, because you're preparing for other for Bob and Jacob. I was preparing a very, very large show in London, simultaneously. 2:20 - Eyal Gever So yeah, some kind of, um, the next few weeks on very precise deliverables. 2:33 - Eyal Gever Yeah, so after that, well, I need to travel there to install, and I believe after that I'm going to be more relaxed. 2:45 - George Goldsmith And did you have, did we say that you might be in London on the 28th of January, or is that? 2:51 - Eyal Gever I have a call on Thursday. Then we'll figure out timing, schedule, and I'll let you know. So I don't know if it's going to be on the 28th, or I'll know exactly when. 3:07 - George Goldsmith Perfect, because we will have another event at HIRIS on the 28th. We'd love to have you be able to share that experience. I'm doing one this week as well. And I think to just giving you really quick updates. I think that first of all, the album is ready for pressing. So now we have to work on the cover and the the materials in it. We have raw material, we have a view of how that would work. And we're viewing that we've already have our first promise of revenue. I think it's like $12, but it's better than nothing. 3:47 - Unidentified Speaker No, it's more than that. 3:49 - George Goldsmith Acoustics one to buy albums 50 for their meeting customers. 3:56 - Unidentified Speaker So that's a little tiny bit. 3:58 - George Goldsmith And we are going to have two things happen in California during the week of the ninth of February. The first thing that we're doing, Alan and I are doing is hosting a listening session at Elle Acoustics on the evening of the 10th for a variety of different people in the entertainment industry, art collectors, et cetera, sound people. And we'll be teaching a course on the 11th for second year MBA students at Marshall School of Business. And they will be basically doing a hackathon on what could boundless become, including looking at business model and maybe developing ideas around apps and so forth. This class has 1,000 applicants. 60 people are chosen. And we're pretty excited about being there. I think Alan and I think it's going to be a really interesting opportunity. When I launched Compass and when I launched Tapestry, I did that at Harvard Business School. And it was a really interesting experience. And they'll spend time thinking about this. Motivated in the class to think about mental health, well-being, use of technology, use of sound. So I think it's an interesting opportunity. That week, we will also be going into the Dolby Atmos studios at Apple and doing an event that we're talking about Ola Obermann hosting at Apple as CEO of Apple Music. And that'll go into their Dolby Atmos studio in Culver City. And I think that's just another opportunity to start sharing the vision and building a partnership. Our target that's emerged with Apple is to actually be introduced to the head of Apple Health by Ola with a meeting with him on how we could help link Apple Health and Apple Music and have it to be an exploratory conversation that Ola is pretty excited about. We just have to get the timing right. And so the Culver City event is a way to start just building a connection to Apple. 6:18 - George Goldsmith And, and I think Bob, we're gonna have to dust off who are the connections that sensor kit and so forth. And are they still there? But I think this could be interesting. Now, one of the things that all has said is that they have a hard time innovating inside of Apple, because it's become so big. So he's now turning to third parties to help them innovate. And that, I think it's an interesting opportunity for us with a huge caveat that everything they like they steal. 6:54 - Eyal Gever So I haven't heard good things about Apple in that way, but let's see if we have the opportunity for them to steal anything and then decide. 7:04 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. 7:07 - Bob Dougherty So, so February 9th, So I guess you'll be in, because I'm actually planning a trip to San Francisco in February and I'm flexible, so I could try. 7:16 - George Goldsmith Yeah, I think if you can plan a California week, we should have a get together there. We may even try to do the visit. And sorry, I don't mean to take advantage of this, but you're invited to all these things ever. You're part of the team in the way I feel. I think that we could also, record is being the lacquer is being cut in in LA or north of LA. And we want to video that for social media. And then it'll be pressed in LA as well. And so I think all of those things could be explored for that. We can certainly cut the lacquer until we have photo ready images of the cover and the opening of the cover. We can't do anything in terms the production, you send everything and that just goes on to the job list. So yeah, I think, Bob, let's definitely think about time, maybe the 11th, even, you know, joining us in the class around the science part of it could be really cool. 8:29 - George Goldsmith Okay, the other thing that's happening is we're working with Radio France, exploring a partnership with them to do a special mix and a special distribution rights for the mix and kind of an entrance for Radio France into well-being and sound. And what I learned is that Radio France, like the BBC, is a national treasure, and it's really seen very much of looking at the future of music, and the R&D group focuses on Immersive. And the point I want to make with Apple is for us to really look at the health benefits of Immersive so that they can start looking at making claims and we could do a citizen research project using an app with Apple. So that's sort of the general view and then to be able to deploy that at Radio France and that kind of environment as well. And they're talking about both recorded music and as well as live events and they've done some really cool stuff. So I'm meeting with the the head of the research area at Radio France with this amazing producer on the next Monday. So we're starting to get these different events. And then lastly, there's an opportunity that we're trying to drive various people to present at the International Music Summit, which is kind of the major event for electronic music, DJs, and they really want to lean into well being. So we're talking to L acoustics about doing a pop up there. They all have an amazing place to have something there that we could share. Chris Connor, who did the voiceover for the 40 minute piece is also been asked by them to do something. So we're going to do that together. And I just heard from all the Apple that he'd love to be part of a panel there. So You know, there's things are going to be. 10:32 - Unidentified Speaker That's in Ibiza in May. Ibiza, April, do you remember? 10:38 - Unidentified Speaker 22nd. 10:38 - Allan Malievsky 20th to 22nd. 10:40 - George Goldsmith 20th to 22nd. OK. 10:41 - Eyal Gever Yeah, I met the guy when I did the Clap Chinoise installation, introduced me to an employee they have there, I think it was What was his name? 10:58 - Eyal Gever Bob, Bob. He was the kind of, I don't know if that's the term, but he was a curator, the kind of curator or the guy who brought all the key artists to, before Club Shinwa, he worked at, what's the number one club there? I forgot the name. Like, he was this kind of a talent scouter and, So he, I think, founded this conference, this... 11:29 - George Goldsmith I hear his name is Danny. Danny, maybe Danny. 11:33 - Eyal Gever Danny is the founder. 11:35 - George Goldsmith Danny, Danny, you're right, Danny. 11:37 - Eyal Gever He's like a next army guy. Like his accent is like a British. Yeah, he's a very nice guy. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Danny. 11:49 - George Goldsmith So I have multiple paths trying to get to Danny, and a proposal was sent to him today by Chris, or will be sent to him today by Chris. And then Ola and I are trying to work those different contacts to get to elevate this. Elle Acoustics is interested in sponsoring it. So that could be good in demonstrating their equipment. And we just need to find kind of a quiet spot that's insulated to deliver this. But I think that would be an amazing place to launch. We have tons of industry people, labels, et cetera, all coming. So all of those things are kind of, that's a rough launch schedule that we have. And we've just completed the 40-minute and the 10-minute mix. Those are now being redone in binaural. And Alan, if you could send everybody a by the binaural 10 and the binaural 40 for listening, that would be great. And that's what I'm showing on Thursday to a bunch of different people, including the health, the health editor for The Economist magazine, who's really intrigued in what we're doing. 13:11 - George Goldsmith So and also, Kevin Ryan, who's the multi billionaire who is the investors been talking to us about all of those as well. So that's my update. Now, hey, all I think we have a deeper thing to talk about. But I wanted to give you a sense of timelines for us. And so album is first in terms of any kind of artistic interest you might have. But I think the reason we have this amazing group on the phone, phone, not me not included, is sort of thinking the future of this, what are we doing that's really distinctive in terms of providing feedback to people in that empathic art fashion? And how do we do that? And, I think that's something that we'd like to explore, because I think dashboards are just, you know, we see dashboards everywhere. But to create something that really is a neuro aesthetic representation of your state of being that changes and develops over time. I think has lots of ability to build community, a lot of ability to share, a lot of ability to really engage people. And that's also what I want to be having something to explore with Apple when the time comes. 14:36 - Eyal Gever Do you think it's a Let's look in the kind of in the future a bit. Do you think it's your mental state while experiencing music or art? Do you think it's something that people would like to share? 14:56 - Eyal Gever It's kind of different than when you run 10K and you are sharing your progress, right? So three months ago, I ran it in X amount of time. And today I did it like, you know, where a emotional, psychological states. 15:12 - Eyal Gever I'm thinking out loud because it's new to me, right? Because everything I was thinking about empathic art was more of an encounter between me, the artwork, the artist, back to me again. It's kind of a private loop. 15:27 - George Goldsmith Yes. So I think pre-pandemic, I would have had a different answer. I think pre... Gen X, I would have a different answer. And I think that it is much more than we think it is. If I just look at people's posts and social. And I think that there will be people who find it deeply personal and retain personal. And then I think there will be people who just can't help but sharing because that's what they do. And so I think proportion, but Alan, you're closely connected, sorry. No, no. 16:05 - Allan Malievsky I mean, I think it's all open for discussion, and I think it's a totally valid point, right? And I think it would be one thing if there was, you know, I envision, you know, especially with the app, there is some kind of logging function, you know, you write down your thoughts, but that's too, like, involved, right? You're not going to really, that's not the best use case of an app, right? There's other stuff that does that. And I would almost agree with you if I, well, not that I don't agree with you, I think there's absolutely people who don't want to share it regardless of how it's presented, but I think given that you're not sharing numbers necessarily, there's no diagnosis. You're not showing, okay, well, you know, here's my, unless you really want to, here's my wavelength. I think the main shareable point, at least from, you know, the app experience would be this, you know, this visual representation, right? Which kind of by default has to be engaging and beautiful and interesting to keep people coming back, right? And so, you know, even if it is like a hard day, I don't think we would present it to them in a way that, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here, in a way that would discourage them from, you know, sharing it, right? I mean, it's artwork, it's for an individual, but it's also for a group. And my hope is that, you know, people would take interest over time in how, you know, individuals, you know, kind of internal art scape, mind, art, body, whatever, evolves, right, as they engage with some of this. So, but I do think it's, you know, it's a totally valid question. I don't know, it is very, I don't texture look. But at the same time, people are already telling you almost everything that's on their mind. It's like, it's wild what's on these platforms. 17:42 - Unidentified Speaker But I think valid concern. 17:46 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think it has value to the person, even if it's kept private. 17:57 - Bob Dougherty is, if it is a meaningful, beautiful representation of what I've managed to achieve in this session, right? And, and then I get enough, you know, I do it again, and I see how it's different. That that has value. So as you said, it's, it's a much more interesting, engaging way to see data, right? 18:21 - Bob Dougherty I'm not the right person to ask, because I'm never post on social media. Even LinkedIn is tough for me. So but I agree, I think the younger generation that some people will share and it could be like, you know, here's this thing I created, right? You're not really a visual artist, but you create this beautiful piece of visual art based on, you know, your own the measurements of your state, I think that people could find in that and sharing that. 18:54 - Allan Malievsky And I think there's authenticity to it because it's, you know, this is not necessarily, you're not, you don't have direct control over the data, right? You're in some ways the paintbrush rather than the, you know, what's holding it, right? And so there, you know, this kind of connection between I'm, you know, fully engaged in the experience and thus the art produced is high quality. You know, I think people would find almost a sense of pride in it because it goes beyond like, you know, we can and I'll write what we want to believe about ourselves into Chad GPT, it'll produce a very nice picture of my idealized self. This, yes, it's in some ways a stylized, well, not in some ways, it is a stylized representation, but it is, it's direct from you. 19:42 - Eyal Gever Trying to organize kind of the experiences, right? So the initial, George kind of took us over different events that invites people to intentionally take experience in super quality, high composed, you know, best talent music experience. Now, the discussion of the application is letting the end user create, by him being present, create an output that will be some form of visualization of his emotional journey. So my question, or really what I'm trying to figure out, is how do you see it? Because one, Having like Boundless Studio would be a producer of quality content that also has an app that goes along that kind of audit and track and create a time-based sort of recording of the emotional experience, or it's going to be totally agnostic to the content. Content, I can listen to anything I want on Spotify or watch different art and Boundless provides me a, you know, some kind of a visual dashboard of my experience. So where I'm trying to figure out is, you guys are discussing probably a lot internally, but where my creating an experience, an art experience, where the present of the viewer impacts the artwork, the artwork impacts the viewer, and it kind of creates a subliminal dialogue, what I call empathic art. 21:54 - Allan Malievsky And this is sort of where we spoke in Ibiza. 21:57 - Eyal Gever Then jumping forward is just to keep, you know, catch up with your evolution and your thinking process, where you are right now is what we talked last week is the unclear commercial opportunity slash priority for creating site-specific experiences yet. 22:22 - Eyal Gever And therefore let's focus first on an app to create an install base of users. So I'm trying kind of, you understand, to create a narrative of our discussion to where we are now and what is that that you guys envision? 22:41 - Allan Malievsky George, I almost wonder if it's worth, because I don't think we've abandoned, you know, the idea of kind of the empathic art type physical installation, right? I mean, that was the crux, actually. I mean, we even we looked at the manifesto you sent us, Eyal, when we were thinking about how to position it to Radio France. So I think it really that is still the goal. 22:59 - Eyal Gever And George, I don't know if you, you know, I think a screen, maybe inappropriately, but I'll share a screen. 23:13 - George Goldsmith Can you see this space? 23:16 - Eyal Gever Yeah, and here's my sphere. Yeah, there's your sphere. 23:21 - George Goldsmith And imagine your sphere projects onto, you know, quality silk and gauze. And I've been talking to a number of artists who've been on this, and they think it's really kind of quite beautiful. And it's also not super expensive. And so imagine that we go into a sound journey, like 40 minutes, or we have 75, we have 90 minutes for the bold. Right now, so we have those different mixes that we've done. But imagine a 40 minute experience, where it's, this is going on, you have the emotional Borealis generated by the some metrics that we would choose and discuss among ourselves, and that this could be recorded and shared. And so it becomes a receipt of the experience, a way to go back and explore the experience. And it becomes a kind of a dynamic library for people. And so, you know, and I think the app role here is a background, right? It's not I'm staring at my phone, we're trying to dissuade that it's it's just a measurement companion. And then I think, you know, some of the work you've done, Bob, and work, we did a compass, you know, this idea of doing a positive psychology, one minute gratitude journal afterwards, right? And there we have all of the voice and the link linguistic qualities. And we can kind of create a personal reflection of that, again, through different color patterns, palettes, etc. But I think that the idea here for me is, this is the imagined—so I've been talking to Le Prairie, of all places, I've had—and they're intrigued. Le Prairie is a place where for only you can go and have a good diet and be on a restricts a great business model, 600 calories a day, 50,000 a week. And, you know, go through different treatments and so forth. And they're really interested in going into mental health and well being. And so you could imagine this at one of their Swiss clinics. And so it's these kinds of environments that I think are one instantiation. The other thing that I've talked about with Ola and Apple is, could we just collect information with Apple Health on what people's responses are to music, any music they listen to? And he was intrigued by that because they bought Shazam, but they're not quite sure what to do with Shazam. 26:18 - Eyal Gever So this could actually be an interesting application for Shazam. 26:21 - George Goldsmith up. And some of the tech team there. So I think that there's this broad kind of let's collect data, let's experiment and maybe experiment in a fairly broad way through an app partnership, listening to music, including some of ours. And then there's more of this kind of a model for high end facilities. And I'm starting to see more and more investors get into this. There's 1.2 billion that's just been allocated by the Abu Dhabi on mental health, Abu Dhabi fund, looking at mental health and well being. And they're looking at venues. So I think we're kind of at the very early stage, but not too early. For the core technology, the core platform is distinctive music. We are starting with stuff we've created, artistic recursion of the experience and output, but output that's much more artistic and heartfelt emotional combination of sound and visual that would be different than, you know, my Aurora dashboard. I think that's the grand tour of the different opportunities and capabilities. 27:36 - Eyal Gever Right. 27:38 - George Goldsmith I'm working with milk right now to turn that into a much shorter building for the elevator. 27:45 - Bob Dougherty Mm hmm. 27:46 - Eyal Gever So what I was, um, my head kind of was spinning when you talk, George, is it's kind of what we're doing now is a, is a product creative session, if you will, where I was asking myself while I listened to you, wow, how would, let's say I have this thing and it tracks my emotional state through my, screen sessions and then it can show a zoom out kind of that it can show a spike that I was really nervous when I Read this news title. I was really chilled and enjoyed when I particularly saw this post on Instagram and I was, you know, I kind of in my head I was playing a zoom out from music and art and kind of said, you know, my head when you talked, I said, OK, well, would it be interesting for me to see my daily experience like a snapshot of my daily experience whilst participating online and listening to music and that? 28:59 - George Goldsmith And then I get a version of this. Right. Oh, yeah. Or a version. 29:03 - Eyal Gever Exactly right. And then I and then you ended the explanation with particularly not a dashboard, but an artistic sort of an artistic display of my emotional state when I listen to music or when I experienced art, etc. So I think what I'm trying to figure out in my head is the urgency of people or Apple to have an auditing kind of emotional. So what is what is the level between taking abstracting it to some visual experience of the emotional journey, versus my obsessive compulsive need for numbers and data to show me more than just visual, you know, translation of this data. You understand what I'm trying to ask? 29:59 - George Goldsmith Yes, yes. And so I think you would have access to both, but the front end would be the visual. 30:05 - Unidentified Speaker Okay. 30:06 - George Goldsmith And I also think that in talking with, so Apple did a deal with Universal Music that in turn did a deal with a little startup in London that basically puts different pink noise, brown noise, and frequency into the Universal catalog entries. They then were acquired by Universal, so they're now part of Universal. And they have claims, and the conversation all that I've been having is that there's no shortage of claims, and there's an incredible absence of evidence. And so this idea of recursion in an art experience and a music experience, which goes beyond, you know, my end of year Spotify summary and what emotional cohort I'm part of, but is much more real time, right? So, so the view here is that this becomes a tool for left-brain, if you will, use that inaccurate metaphor. But it's your male-oriented dashboard, no matter how pretty. And it's this sort of representation that may touch me in a different way. 31:30 - Eyal Gever Right. 31:32 - Eyal Gever an autopilot following you as you experience, or it's a only being activated when you, you know, dedicated, take your time, really deep listening to music or watching art now, right, exactly as your image now on the screen. So I'm trying really to figure out. 31:56 - George Goldsmith It's great questions, by the way. Yeah. 32:01 - Eyal Gever out what is the user experience that we're aiming for, much before how it's going to look, you know, etc. 32:08 - George Goldsmith So, yeah, user experience, in my mind, and I'm really sick of Bob and Jacob and Helen, of course, but in my mind, it is, it's is much more akin to my aura ring, which is running in the background. And I choose to engage with it. And I choose how to use it, whether to wear it, whether not to wear it. But it's not something I'm sitting in a listening experience looking at how my heart rate is changing. As a matter of fact, we don't want that to even be a function. Impossible. 32:43 - Bob Dougherty So that it creates a kind of a quiet, non-device engaged, so the screen goes blank. 32:50 - George Goldsmith You can't engage until the end of this. 32:55 - George Goldsmith So I think it's much more like a utility that I have that I can engage consciously and look at my progress. And to go to a place, again, the meta story here is people need a place for sanctuary for respite. Some people really need that. And with every day's news more and more. And to be able to kind of create this space where I can go, I won't be interrupted, and I'll see kind of how I enter and how I leave and understand that better, that that becomes a tool, not unlike my withing scale, or my, you know, it's just another device in the entourage of devices and insights, but it aggregates and focuses on my well being. 33:52 - Eyal Gever Right. 33:54 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, so I I have maybe a slightly different angle that I've been thinking mulling over. At least for me, and I think this may be true for many people, actually engaging with a beautiful piece of music, really turning off all the distractions in my mind and and truly engaging and listening is an achievement for me. It's, it's, it's not something that's easy. And but that's when I really, when it really has an impact. And I could see this. And I don't know exactly how what it looks like as a product. But I, one thought is that the, you know, the, the visual that's attuned to what's going on in you is not just your emotional impact, because you'll have no emotional impact from the music if you're not engaged with it. So the kind of dominant theme, like the sphere, you know, to take that example, is just very boring and dull, until, you know, in a group setting enough people, or if it's just one that that person really engages, then it becomes alive. And then then the emotions don't really matter, they could be positive, it could be negative, but you're engaged with it, and it's going to have an impact, and long term going to have a positive impact, regardless of the, you know, the acute state. So I could, you know, for me, that's, that could be an important component of it to really help people. And then I don't know if you know about the Muse, the Muse EEG meditation device. 35:37 - Unidentified Speaker They try to do that, but because they use sound to show you how you're engaged, they can't play music. It's just like birds and rain and Mm hmm. 35:48 - Allan Malievsky Kind of generic sounds. But if wanders and then come and then you manage to kind of redirect it back to the original kind of point when you begin the meditation, you get the kind of birds that tell you you're on the right track and reflected in your final data. It's a similar process, I imagine, for OK, during this time you're actually generating art. 36:07 - Bob Dougherty Right. Yeah. It's a really interesting. Yeah. 36:11 - Eyal Gever Right. So basically you are guiding the user to be engaged. And then the magic happens. Because one time where I'm listening deeply into music is going for a walk with my headset, you know, but then wouldn't my cardio be impacted because I'm walking and jogging? So that will impact the data, which is an interesting thing to what are the spots that we today in modern world, you know, obsessed with crazy schedule, blah, blah, that we can devote time for wellness, right? 36:48 - Bob Dougherty Yeah. Well, on the on the measurement side, I do think EEG earbuds will be commonplace soon. They're, you know, they're already products. They're, you know, they're decent, you know, I've been tracking the technology for a while. They're, they're pretty good now. And they're just going to just keep getting better. That's my guess. 37:14 - George Goldsmith And so that will be less impacted. 37:16 - Bob Dougherty Those measurements will be less impacted. I mean, if you're jumping around, you're never going to get good measurements from these kinds of sensors. But if you're just walking, it would be better than heart rate. Sure. 37:29 - George Goldsmith Just a little funny aside, Radio France is really thinking a lot about audio environments in self-driving cars. 37:38 - Bob Dougherty They think that that that's going to be probably the prime listening environment of the future. 37:42 - Eyal Gever Very cool. Yeah. You know, so I'm looking at your screenshot, George, and I'm saying, you know, putting my entrepreneurship years kind of trying to figure out a blueprint, business model or product. And what came funny enough into my mind is, you know, karaoke. Is that the future? So it used to be karaoke where we gathered and we being a karaoke machine. Well, in this stage, we're gathering in order to chill out together, right? 38:14 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, yeah. 38:15 - Unidentified Speaker You're kind of looking at this. Yeah. 38:18 - Bob Dougherty And you could you could imagine in this kind of setting, like if people are not, you know, eyes closed state, but but more, you know, more, you know, being social, you can imagine the control of the sphere moving from one person to another, right? 38:32 - Eyal Gever Right, right. 38:33 - Bob Dougherty And so whose mind is the most artistic or whatever. 38:38 - Allan Malievsky I do really like this concept of it being a function of your engagement with it, right? And that the emotional tone is secondary. Because anything, positive, negative, anxious, relaxed, it can still in its own, I mean, it's beautiful in its own way, right? It's serving its purpose, its function. So I think, yeah, I think if we were looking for a lover, that's it. 39:00 - Unidentified Speaker Engagement. 39:02 - Bob Dougherty How you measure that, now that's another question. 39:05 - Allan Malievsky Exactly, yeah. But I have ideas. 39:09 - Bob Dougherty It may need to require EEG, but as I said, I do think, yeah, it could be a little clunky this year, but by next year, I think these earbuds, EEG earbuds will make it basically zero, zero cost. 39:30 - Eyal Gever And so that we'll be able track when somebody is engaged compared to... 39:34 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, there's a literature on this, and there's a few different directions, but for, you know, anything that has a rhythmic component, entrainment, you get neural entrainment at different levels from that, and so that is a met, and you know, it doesn't happen if you're not attending. So it could be a good proxy. 40:00 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, maybe then the addressable market is totally different. It's schools in classrooms. 40:08 - George Goldsmith You know, one of the places that people have suggested is airports. 40:15 - Bob Dougherty Oh, yeah, I've actually had a little side. I don't know if you've heard this, but San Francisco airport made a deliberate effort to make it get rid of all the announcements like they don't make announcements. It's airport wide. And you know, they didn't advertise this, but it turns out like they were getting consistently rated as the best airport experience. And people realize it's because it's actually like, not blasting you with this annoying sound. It's physically more pleasant. 40:45 - Jacob Birk Well, so yeah, I just want to comment on one thing you said earlier, when you said you listen to music and walking, and that was part like you can really combine that with the music. Thing is, from point of view here is that if we do art installations like Abyss and stuff like that, that will become part of the whole experience, right? So measure these things is actually, in some cases, more important as well, like what are you doing while this event is happening and then tracking that data. And that could also be, well, What am I doing while I am listening? Like, you're walking your dog, you're just taking for a walk. That could be part of your personal experience, right? So I think it's important not to disregard that, but kind of maybe embrace it. 41:37 - Bob Dougherty Yeah, I think the motion sensors, like the social psychology thing here, when people walk in a group, they tend to synchronize their steps. 41:50 - Bob Dougherty And I'm guessing when you're walking to music, again, that has a rhythmic component, there'll be some, you know, it might not be the rhythm, but it might be some multiple harmonic of the rhythm, that you're, you know, you're synchronous or an alias of the rhythm. Again, that could be an indicator that you're engaged with what you're listening to and not zoning out, you know, what you're looking at. 42:16 - Eyal Gever You know, there were One thing I was trying to, I don't know, I captured my thoughts and imagination the last few weeks was neuroplasticity, right? So, you know, when you are engaged into something where, if you do it repeatedly in a certain way that, you know, the and create new neurons, kind of pathways, right? And improving past traumas or habits, negative habits. So I'm trying to, while listening to you, what we're discussing here, is there a add on benefits, not just helping me to relax and help me, you know, in a daily ritual kind of that helps with my anxiety perhaps helps me as we progress to change some bad habits for example or increase my ability to concentrate where we all know today kids they're like my daughter and my young daughter she's she'll be 15 in a few months and you know it's hard for her to watch a movie she much she's much more capable to concentrate on epic episodes in series and a movie too long for her, you know, and I was kind of shocked. She's used to have this kind 50 minutes experience versus, you know, an hour and a half, two hours. 43:57 - Eyal Gever And so attention spending is becoming worse and worse. So anyway, I was listening to you guys and kind of came back to me, my about neuroplasticity, not just, you know, wellness, anyway. 44:16 - George Goldsmith Yes, well, I think it's all connected, right? Yeah. It's, there's this neuroscience expression of neurons that fire together, wire together, which is sort of the, and I'm feeling that I've insulted you, Bob, but I've, you know. 44:30 - Bob Dougherty No, no, that's still true. That's still basically true. 44:34 - George Goldsmith It's fundamental. Sort of vaguely true. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess what I'm interested in is, I'll post your, is this something that holds appeal to think about how we would create these environments with you, with the app for measurement, and really explore that space. And I think that There are, you know, if I look at that drawing I just had and then play it against the things, you know, so it takes months sometimes to get into these $50,000 a week programs. 45:19 - George Goldsmith And that sounds crazy, but true. And they have turnover, right? So they start on Sunday. You brought each kind of class into one of these experiences, right? It just becomes part of the experience. And then I think the other thing is really this, this notion you've all touched on, is really the emergence of a practice. So my practice is I listen to the work that Dong has done at night, in kind of high res headphones. And I do that for 25 30 minutes. And I'm just curious to see if that's a practice that I maintain. And I do actually, there's enough variety, but there's also this kind of strange familiarity and comfort in hearing it again. So I think I'll just offer, you know, the 10 or minute version for you to try. All of you to try just put it in as a practice. 46:22 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah, well, see how many days you last before it drives you crazy. 46:28 - Bob Dougherty And one in that variety. And thank thinking, you know, we've talked about, you know, hinted at this is coming more clear in my mind now. But at that moment, when you're ready to listen, if we have been tracking you, and, you know, kind of, we, you know, we meaning some AI, some, some algorithm has a sense of what you're ready for what you what would be most helpful for you, we can pick from that catalog, the best piece or the, you know, recommended piece for you. 47:01 - Unidentified Speaker So that you don't have to go sort, know the whole thing and sort through it. 47:05 - Unidentified Speaker Like a prescription, almost like, 47:07 - Unidentified Speaker Exactly. 47:07 - Bob Dougherty Yes. 47:08 - Unidentified Speaker Interesting. 47:11 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah, exactly. 47:12 - George Goldsmith So I mean, I think, so I think this is a direction we'd like to take, we'd love to have you engaged in some way, you know, with us when the time is right. We'd love to sponsor to kind of get your thinking, we have to build the measurement and so forth, we have to have the dashboards because all we're talking about technically is a composite multimodal endpoint from all of these different inputs, right? It's just it's not going to be presented as a number. 47:42 - Eyal Gever It'll be a field. 47:47 - George Goldsmith And so I think that's that was the purpose of today to see if that would hold interest to continue this. And I think our team is going to continue to lean in, I know, with Bob and with Jacob and us to look at what are we measuring? How are we measuring it? 48:06 - George Goldsmith And I think that there could be just some interesting, yeah, I think it'd be a very interesting journey. And to be able to do testing of it. I think this is the key issue is where do we do testing? I've gotten a commitment from L Acoustics that we can use, we can start doing measurement in Highgate. And they also have a piece of equipment called the Island, which is in storage. And I have a friend who runs kind of one of the leading longevity practices in the US. And so, you know, it's for targeted for founders of unicorn companies as their clientele. And this environment is two seats surrounded by speakers. 48:49 - Eyal Gever Yeah, I know that sort of the sofa. 48:51 - George Goldsmith Yeah, yeah, it's the So we have an island and the head of that practice has 150 square meters in London, that he'd like to figure out what to do with and we could turn that into a research space. 49:03 - Eyal Gever Nice. Very cool. 49:06 - Unidentified Speaker So, so I appreciate you're all tolerating me. Yeah. 49:11 - Bob Dougherty I'm curious who does that sphere exist? Or if not, who's who's building it? Who's specking? 49:19 - Eyal Gever Oh, okay. So Yeah, I have a whole deck on that. The sphere, I haven't done the full execution yet. What it is, is particular, there are two options. One is flexible 0.9 LED screens that are, and you can create a sphere. Yep. 49:49 - Eyal Gever where there is pros and cons. The alternative I was testing is it's kind of a translucent sphere with a 360 lens inside and a ultra short throw projector. Now, the aesthetics is a little bit different because the LED one is really illuminated and it's really crisp. And it might be too crisp, Because I wanted to give it kind of a vibe of crystal ball in a way, kind of something which is so perhaps cover it with a plexiglass transparent sphere. 50:35 - Bob Dougherty So it becomes like almost like a lens on top of the LED. 50:39 - Eyal Gever An extra diffuser. Yeah. So I've done a lot of a lot of work and experimentation on that, but I haven't fully executed yet, I'm waiting for the right project. And then I was thinking about sizes and install base, limited editions, you know, or one big one. And prices, by the way, are constantly getting better because hardware, LEDs, quality is increasing and prices are improving. 51:08 - Eyal Gever So, fairly soon I have to go, but So so I take my takeaways are as follows. I still owe you my feedback on the cover of the record. 51:25 - George Goldsmith Right. The cover art. 51:28 - Eyal Gever So give me a few more days and then I can I really want to do it. I just want to know that I. You know, I can do the best creative I can and also respond to changes and everything while I have the open and travel and installation, number one. Two is, yeah, I'd love to be continuing the conversation. Obviously, you know, A, I love the team, you know, and we share a vision and I love the process of experimentation and doing something which is greatness. Having said that, yeah, I'm interested in the site-specific acoustic kind of immersive experiences very much, but also definitely connected to the brains, which could be in the app, right? Or it could be your ring, or it could be your whatever sensors could be, or the heads, the head, the buds, the earbuds, right? Because this is where naturally things will evolve. You know, it's, we're going to be empowered. This sort of protecting our humanity needs for relax, for engagement, for wellness. And what you just described on the San Francisco airport is what I want to hear everywhere, right? So museums are becoming sanctuaries. 53:06 - Eyal Gever We need to protect our wellness and the speed of things and AI everywhere. Yeah, it's scary. However, if we can provide, you know, artistic world experiences that help, you know, help people, but not necessarily just help, you know, create an amazing artistic experience. 53:29 - George Goldsmith So, yeah, the help is an add on, right? 53:32 - Eyal Gever Yeah. And see Rodko, you know, I feel great. You know, I go and see Guernica, you know, it might awaken some energies, right? This is the power of art and music. So yeah, so... 53:53 - George Goldsmith And it's not all about chill. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it was a key component for us with Dom, we were talking about, we didn't want be vapid spa music that someone would, you know, fall asleep as they couldn't help it. We wanted something that was engaging. 54:09 - Eyal Gever Absolutely, absolutely. 54:11 - George Goldsmith I think the last thing I'll just mention is there's one other thing that a person I met on the weekend, and we're going to see it, he has created 17 and a half meter spheres with 100 speakers. And the 17 and a half meter sphere, approximately two meters up from the ground, around, has a net and it's the net that you would see under a trap, you know, a trapeze artist. 54:38 - Eyal Gever Okay. And he has on that net, a series of cushions. 54:46 - George Goldsmith And he then uses a combination of light speakers and this mixing environment to produce sound all around you. And we are mixing as we speak for that environment to go to his Chateau as one does in the south of France. He has a three day conference coming up in June, where we're also talking so we're good. We're doing the mix as we speak. We'll take a trip to Burgundy and go lay in the sphere for 40 minutes and see if that's another opportunity. But our engineers right now. We have this amazing guy named Laurent Dupuis working with our other amazing person, Matt. And they're just incredibly skilled. 55:38 - Eyal Gever Are you going to use the L-Acoustics Lisa spatial sound? 55:42 - George Goldsmith No, actually, for that environment, he thinks that this person, Ed Cook, thinks that it's inferior to what he's using. 55:51 - Eyal Gever Wow. 55:52 - George Goldsmith And actually, because it can't handle the number of channels that he can handle. And so, yeah, but our engineer Laurent Dupree is someone who's been actually known as the founder of that software, has been using it for years. It was just purchased by JBL. 56:13 - Eyal Gever So if he has already this mesh in construction, you know, putting a canvas around and adding this projection mapping sound reactive experience is natural. Do you have a spatial acoustic experience with real-time rendered reactive music, right? 56:33 - George Goldsmith He's all on it. He's just so excited. We spent an hour and a half at a very busy party off in a corner. So we got to have a great time with him as well. So there's something brewing here. 56:46 - Eyal Gever Yeah, yeah, yeah. 56:49 - George Goldsmith Good. OK, we will follow up. Focus on your exhibition, any communication, if you want to send us stuff, we can set up a quick call. We're going to focus on measurement right now and think about what that looks like, and lean into that a bit more. And I think our goal would be, Bob and Jacob, would you start collecting data in HIRIS and in LA at the L-Acoustic sites, so we can start getting a sense of what does measurement look like that's relatively unobtrusive. 57:21 - Eyal Gever That's good. Great talking to you.