VTC: George, Allan, Eyal Tue, Dec 16, 2025 0:03 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, so it's fine, finally, you know? For now. 0:06 - Unidentified Speaker Does it feel like the war is behind you? Well, no. 0:12 - Eyal's iPhone No, we feel we are in between. 0:15 - George Goldsmith I guess that's the way it often feels, right? 0:22 - Eyal's iPhone We don't have delusions that it's over. Unfortunately, it's terrible. 0:28 - Unidentified Speaker Anyway, how are you guys? 0:30 - Eyal's iPhone How are you doing? 0:31 - George Goldsmith Okay, last couple of days in Paris before we head off toward the U.S. To see Katja's mom for a couple week or 10 days. And then, yeah, so kind of getting winding down our Paris life, had our last French class today. And Allan is working on Allan Rosie's and I are working on the branding work with the Milk Agency, which is developing in an interesting way. So, we'll see more tomorrow, actually. We'd love to get your view of it when we have this kind of first phase completed for your feedback and thoughts, if you have time for that. 1:15 - George Goldsmith So, that's happening. And we have a couple of things we want to chat about with you that are somewhat emerging and just get a catch up with you and how things are progressing. And yeah, on the 18th, on Thursday, we've just finished, actually are finishing in this moment, a new immersive mix of a 40-minute piece that is being completed and put into the Elecoustic Immersive Environment. And I have a small group coming on Thursday night to the High Resolution in London, and we'll get some feedback, and then we'll start systematic programs with measurement next month. 2:00 - George Goldsmith So, you know, concrete baby steps. 2:03 - Eyal's iPhone That's in L-Acoustics, that sound? 2:06 - George Goldsmith Yes, the HiRIST room. 2:08 - Eyal's iPhone So it's mainly sound, not necessarily the visual? 2:11 - George Goldsmith It'll be sound right now, and I think part of what we want to talk about is how do we think about adding emergent visuals? And so the two things we want to chat about, let me just ping Al, and it's still early for him. 2:26 - Rosie Dent I'm adjusting it now actually. 2:31 - George Goldsmith So we have been working on, I've been working on very old technology for the last month and a half called a vinyl album. 2:42 - Unidentified Speaker I thought it was important in recognition of Dom's history, to create a bridge from the past to the future. 2:51 - George Goldsmith So we have been creating a vinyl, but doing it with the highest tech vinyl processes available right now, which has been just a fascinating journey, because it will never be as good from a purely technical sound quality perspective as the digital. But it has a place. Yeah, sure. The best mixing engineers in the world for vinyl, the best place to master it. I've learned so much about the production of vinyl and where it needs to be pressed and what material and how much weight it should have. And I mean, it's been a fascinating journey into old tech. 3:42 - George Goldsmith And the part of what we're, I mean, just learning things that I just never knew but made all the sense in the world. The sound quality reduces the closer into the end of a side you get, because there's less information for each rotation, right? And so it's just this very interesting kind of math problem to figure out what songs go where, where do we need these kinds of dynamism. 4:11 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, yeah. 4:13 - George Goldsmith So that's been kind of fun, but that then creates one opportunity we wanted to talk to you about, which is, what might the album cover look like, 4:22 - Eyal's iPhone What's the music about? What is the music? Well, we'll share it with you right after. 4:29 - Eyal's iPhone We have side A and side B. 4:31 - George Goldsmith It's a continuous set of tracks for each side of the album. Of the inner part. 4:40 - George Goldsmith So it'll be opening up album and then we'll have a combination of photographs of its creation plus little profiles of the artists who were involved and their experience of creating this. So it'll tell a story inside and then the outside should also tell a story. 5:02 - George Goldsmith And so we wanted hold any interest to chat about or think about or maybe even do together. 5:08 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, sure. I'd love to hear whatever you can share. Oh, sure. And see comes and if I can contribute anything, sure. 5:22 - George Goldsmith So, we have that. And then I think the other, so that's wonderful. So, we'll just share that after this call. 5:31 - George Goldsmith The other thing is, is really thinking about this notion of how to incorporate the experience of the participants to kind of create this recursion and reflexive experience. The more I look at the work that I have on Vision Pro, the more I find it difficult and somewhat isolating. 6:06 - George Goldsmith I haven't gotten the new head strap, which will then change the kind of heaviness in the front of the face a bit. But I still felt that it's sort of like watching something through binoculars, which has a very different experience than being present. 6:28 - George Goldsmith So, I'm starting to think through how, you know, is there anything we could do to offset that? 6:36 - George Goldsmith And then to one of the people from Atlanticus coming on Thursday evening, who's the producer of this, and I'll talk to him about it. 6:48 - George Goldsmith But I think that there might be ways to bring in the video and then change the scenes with kind of work you've done in Unreal, so that there's kind of a biometric feedback process. That is, how I'm responding to this, to then lead to a sense of perhaps neurological entrainment. Good morning, Allan. Good morning. 7:12 - Allan Malievsky Hi, how are you, sir? 7:13 - Unidentified Speaker I'm okay. Good morning. 7:14 - Eyal's iPhone Good morning. 7:18 - George Goldsmith Yeah, it's from nighttime to morning. That never sets on balance. Wait till we get Australia going. So, yeah, so I think I was just sharing kind of the idea about the album cover, Allan, and we'll send a link of side A, side B to Al so we can just get a sense of what we've done and see if that holds any interest or ideas. And then we're just raising this question of how to take this kind of high-resolution video from nature, and then bring that into this kind of feedback process with Unreal, so that we have this world in which we exist, right, together. 8:08 - Unidentified Speaker So that's the video you told me about some time ago? 8:14 - Unidentified Speaker And you don't have—do you have a Vision Pro? No, I don't. 8:18 - Eyal's iPhone You know, I don't know if it's worth getting, frankly. 8:23 - George Goldsmith The more I kind of use it, the more isolating it feels. It seems like it would be good for films, which has been what everyone says, and then every other application kind of is less than that. 8:40 - Eyal's iPhone They spend so much R&D, and this is such an expensive product. 8:48 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, what's going to be the future adoption of such a product, huh? It's unknown. 8:54 - Unidentified Speaker It is. 8:55 - George Goldsmith And I think that if I look at kind of if we were putting our R&D money market, I think I'd much rather be doing that in shared immersive spaces and produce something for them than for this somewhat niche product and then a niche application on a niche product. 9:14 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, math doesn't work. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Um, yeah, it's, it's gonna take a long time. You know, what Mark Zuckerberg is doing with Oakley, Oakley, with Ray band, yeah, Ray band, which is more of augmented, it's kind of overlaying information on top. Seems like a more mass market kind of thing. But but still, it's very early on. And this whole thing with the bracelet and it's going to take a while and huge amount of money they put behind it. And what Apple is doing, it's kind of, you know, the old days, VR headset and the the quest that met the quest that they released, but wasn't really successful. 10:11 - Eyal's iPhone Being over, what, 30 now in this kind of virtual world, technology world, you know, I think I told you I had the in 1996, I was on the cover of the Read Herring magazine. I remember. And they had the they gave me is the LSD of the internet, because I was one of the founding people behind VRML, which was Virtual Reality Modeling Language. So, you know, 1996, we had the vision of virtual worlds. And now we are what? 2026 almost. God, crazy. So even though, you know, we're a generation more advanced in the visual experiential side, putting a thing on your face is still a challenge. And even Apple faced those challenges, even though the quality is superb. So being on this bleeding edge as a startup seems like a bit risky. 11:28 - Eyal's iPhone If it would have been a mass market product, then you're kind of going into a huge installment. But that's not the case. So having those sort of immersive wellness or well-being sessions, as you said, well-being sessions that then could be distributed through wellness channels, you know, whether it's pop-ups, collaboration with hotels. 12:00 - Eyal's iPhone And yeah, I remember what you said about the economics that it's like three 300K or 600K and Six Senses won't have that as a budget, I think the product or the vision will be something so And so on time, because we all know this attraction people have to things that are well-being or wellness. And tourism around wellness is huge and activities around wellness are huge. And if we can create this 30, 40 minutes experience, whether it's individual or a group or a small group, and it's everything is perfect, right? The music, the visuals, the way it's displayed. I think it will have a huge, it will be a unique, powerful offering. And perhaps there are ways to make it cheaper than, you know, the cost you mentioned. I don't know. 13:17 - George Goldsmith But I think part of it, acoustics is like really expensive, right? 13:24 - Eyal's iPhone even though you have partnership with them, you know, sometimes being agnostic to the hardware and just, you know, collaborating with few providers or integrating to something that the hotel already invested in. I'm just throwing idea, you know. 13:40 - George Goldsmith Oh, this is really great and aligned because, so, the recordings we're making now, we're developing in three formats. The first format is Dolby Atmos, which is, It can be played many places. The second format is an L-acoustics format for high-resolution L-acoustic systems, whether it's 25 meters or whether it's 5 meters. And then lastly, we are just—this is being done as we speak right now in London—we're creating binaural mixes. So even just with headphones, there'll be a spatial appreciation of it. So we've—since we last met, yet we focus on those are going to be the three production formats, which give us a wide range. And we're actually talking with a—the pop-up in London—I have a conversation tomorrow with them—would be a Dolby Atmos representation played on L-acoustic equipment speakers in a pop-up in Soho in London. And so, you know, I think having those, I agree with 100%, you know, so you go where the installed base is. And I think that one of my principles, particularly in early stage, is to take your biggest problem and skip it. And if our biggest problem is Sixth Sense is affording these spaces, then let's wait for them to have enough content to afford those. Where those spaces exist. 15:20 - Eyal's iPhone And I think that there's increasing numbers of those. 15:23 - George Goldsmith And so I think that coupled with adding measurement technology that we can drop into a space and use their facilities with our measurement technology and content, I think that becomes an interesting moat, differentiator. 15:45 - Eyal's iPhone So I think that's more the direction we're headed. 15:47 - George Goldsmith And then Allan and his team have been really working a lot on what's the nature of the app and how will people interact with this capability. 15:59 - Eyal's iPhone And the other thing would be or figure out the human response in real time. Any ideas what you want to track? Continuing what we spoke to Bob in our last call, so... 16:18 - George Goldsmith Yes. 16:21 - George Goldsmith We're not—so Bob is—Bob and I are working—there's a new grant that has been given by the U.S. Government for research in psychedelics, so right now we're applying for that, so very focused in that area. That's for another company that we're trying to launch. But it's all the same technology, all the same measurement technology. And I think that the EEG is looking like it's becoming more easy to measure. So he's always been very interested in the EEG. Obviously, respiration, heart rate. This thermographic imaging is also interesting as is electromyography, which is more complicated. 17:04 - Eyal's iPhone So I think we'll be developing the suite. 17:06 - George Goldsmith And one of the ideas that Allan and we had yesterday was to, with our app, help people choose the right level of equipment for their objectives. So, HRV from the Oura ring is not nearly as accurate as it is from an ECG monitor on your chest. And so, to start thinking about how to customize this. So, this is something we'll be getting back into right after the new year in terms of what we'll be measuring. 17:39 - George Goldsmith But yeah, I think this is, and for this week, we've just decided to dim the lights and give people eye masks and have them create their own visual experience. 17:51 - Eyal's iPhone So yeah, so it would be interesting for you guys to sense the audience when they're listening to your music and experiencing it. Experiencing sort of the first stages of the app. 18:13 - Eyal's iPhone But yeah, I'm trying when I listen to you and I'm still a believer in a new experience, which is sort of an exchange in real time between. Yes, absolutely. What you're receiving and what you're radiating back to the up to the work. So it's kind of an endless kind of communication between the human and sort of the experience. 18:42 - George Goldsmith And I think that, you know, as we look forward to, so I think I will send so in addition to vinyl A and B, so side A, side B, I will send you the 40 minute version that's been mixed. I'll wait for binaural version to come out over the next couple days, and I'll WeTransfer it or SwissTransfer it to you. So you'll get a sense of what the spatial sound would be like, And do you have Dolby Atmos in your studio? 19:22 - George Goldsmith I was just trying to figure out which format would be best, but I think if I send it to you via binaural, that would be the best for your occur. So, I think that's the goal, right? To start thinking about what the visual, and to Allan's perspective, you know, scent, the olfactory. I think that Dom has done a beautiful job in the mixing with Matt and Laurent, who are doing the mixing. To really have deep frequencies. So with the reproduction, you feel it deeply in your body. We're working with 25 hertz. 20:05 - Eyal's iPhone Okay, we'll you know, take a listen and think through. And yeah, and I guess it'd be interesting to hear what you come up after your experience next week, right, with what's your expectation or what's your goals there? 20:31 - George Goldsmith The goal is to see how this new engineer who's working with Matt has evolved the sound in the 3D environments. This is a little bit of a test project. And then we have people who are largely, so we have people who are doing neuroaesthetics consultations or going to studios in London, a person from Atlantic Studios coming, the chief medical officer of Compass coming. So, a variety of people are coming with very different backgrounds. And it's to really just get to hear what their experience is and how they would think about visuals, how they would think about measurement. 21:22 - George Goldsmith Yeah, good. 21:24 - Eyal's iPhone So we'll see. 21:30 - George Goldsmith And Rosie, do we know who is anyone else coming from Paul's list or not? 21:35 - Rosie Dent I'm currently only a lady called Karen Grace, who is she works in the pharmaceutical center and she ran Bell and Croydon and is very interested in getting involved within the of boundless, is what Paul said. 21:53 - George Goldsmith This is the leading kind of health, pharmacy and healthcare group inside of London. So, that's interesting. So, you know, we'll report back on that. But Allan, you joined a tiny bit late, but I've given you kind of a summary I want to always dominate. So, are there other things that, you know, I think maybe you should talk about this representation of one's experience, because I think that was an interesting thing we talked about yesterday. 22:26 - Allan Malievsky So this is just something that we, you know, we don't miss. I don't know how much we've maybe laid out about the app. I think we've talked about it in Ibiza. 22:39 - Allan Malievsky But broad strokes, you know, obviously, this is how people at home would access the music, would access, you know, okay, here, so you're going to connect. Your devices to this, and you're going to start modeling, visualizing, et cetera, whatever matters to you. There's actually, there's a pretty short graph that kind of models out what the sum 40 devices we want to be eventually integrated into it with what it's measuring, et cetera. So if you were interested in that, we could definitely share it. But I think one of, you know, we've taken a look at other interfaces and I mean, everything from, you know, Whoop to Aura, or whatever, I mean, we've kind of seen how the data is presented. You know, there are probably ways to tighten that up and maybe get something a little bit cleaner out there. But, you know, ultimately, like a lot of these apps are pretty functional already, right? And so what kind of sets us apart is, you know, being able to view these as not just numbers, not just graphs, whatever, but it's sort of like almost like a gut feeling, right? Like the gist. And so, you know, how do we do that? I mean, this is ultimately kind of an app for some engagement with creative process. And so we wanted to create some sort of feature. I mean, I, you know, sophomorically call it an algorithm, but it's probably close, maybe not, I don't know, that would allow them to take their data, you know, that's maybe represented in an HRV chart, blood pressure, whatever, and combine it, you know, with one another, with whatever they pull in, into something visual or auditory. Or something that is quickly shareable that has this kind of representational quality to it that is not, you know, it's not hard and fast concrete data, you know, intensive. It is driven by the data. And, you know, a user could say, okay, you know, I had my experience today. It was a tough day. This is what, you know, my well-being state looks like, right? And so I think giving them options that maybe it's abstract or, you know, it's more classical leaning. There's a couple pieces for it. One is people like to have things to share with their people on social media, whether it's through the app or not. Obviously drives a little bit of traffic through that. That's an interesting, I don't want to call it a gimmick, but just for the purposes here, it is something like a gimmick, right? But I think it's also, I mean, it's important to be able to just, if there are some kind of there's an actual design system, and we know that it does certain things pretty reliably, even if there is a generative component, there would have to be. It does actually provide a tool to sort of interpret, you know, your stuff from, you know, a little bit more of an intuition. And so, yeah, I think I have trouble maybe articulating exactly what that would look like, right? I mean, it could be as simple as, you know, representing something through, you know, motion, movement, modes of light, whatever, depending on, you know, if it was, you know, if they were elevated, maybe there's a lot of it, maybe it was kind of more subdued, less of it, you know, colors kind of signifying what we can infer about their emotional tone, maybe once we've gotten enough kind of longitudinal data on them, maybe that's a feature that opens up right now, we know a bit more, whatever. 25:54 - Allan Malievsky But yeah, I think it's, it is just important to give users at very least some capacity to create something approaching, you know, it's basically a post experience. 26:09 - Allan Malievsky Summary in a way. 26:14 - Unidentified Speaker Indicator or something that actually show you shows you in a artistic, compelling way the journey you went through since you experienced this session. And it should be compelling enough or exciting enough to share. 26:31 - Allan Malievsky But even if you don't share it, it's kind of more your daily. 26:37 - Eyal's iPhone It's like almost like bookmarks or tagging of experiences you had. 26:48 - Eyal's iPhone But it's not something I will I will look at while experiencing. 26:52 - George Goldsmith No, no, no, no. 26:56 - Allan Malievsky This is very much like, you know, we can and look, let's get into your numbers. You know, Hey, this is what we noticed at minute 22. And then, you know, your heart rate rose a little bit. Did you think about something today? So there will be that whole component in the app. Super important. Um, but again, this is, you know, if that's your advice from, you know, a statistician slash MD or, you know, whatever, someone leaning a little bit more hard sciences, they don't know about you. They don't know that you can totally merge those. Um, you know, this would be, you know, the advice from your, you know, resident, I mean, sure, artist, but kind of Oracle and, you know, whatever you want to you want to call them. But just something I mean, I would imagine, especially if somebody's, you know, maybe the better way of phrasing this, if somebody's come in and, you know, when they started using it, you know, they were anxious and distracted and, you know, what have you. And then they get to, you know, a few weeks in a month and they get to a place that's really kind of stable. That should be possible to visualize it, yes, with the numbers, but also with whatever this kind of like, you know, production will be, right? You know, and it's a recognizable journey, both for them and potentially for somebody else, right? This is, you know, this is what my, because I mean, who doesn't kind of want people to be able to see what's going on internally, right? And a bunch of numbers, yeah, we've seen it before. 28:17 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah, yeah. 28:19 - Allan Malievsky This is how boundless interpreted, you know, where you are. 28:23 - Eyal's iPhone Yeah, during the session. 28:27 - George Goldsmith Or not during, even during the session at all, because I think one of the things... 28:30 - Eyal's iPhone No, post-session, I mean. 28:33 - George Goldsmith Not even leading to the session. So, if you think about it, I just had this interesting 45 minutes with the health editor at The Economist today, who's fascinated by music as medicine, and her father was in the music industry and was very involved in psychedelics in the 80s. Or 60s, actually. And so, the conversation we had was, how do you build engagement that's differentiated? And so, one thing we were talking about is voice and acoustic features and language are an incredibly powerful source of data to be correlated with other kinds of physiological data. So, just building on what Allan said, what if we had, at the end of every day, a little notification 30 minutes or 30 seconds and record, what are you grateful for? And that that is correlated with measurements that have been taken through the day associated with music listening, for example, or not, more broadly. And at the end of that, you receive kind of a graphical, not a graphical in terms of technology, but an artistic representation. For example, you might be asked at the beginning beginning when you sign up to choose images that you relate to on your best days, images you relate to when you may be anxious, images you relate to when you may be sad. And so there becomes a personal visual vocabulary. And based on these inputs and based on the language, you get this image of the day that's personalized. Personalized because you chose kind of the elements of it when you kind of signed up. And so you have this almost icon or embodiment of your experience of the day. And you could have those shareable, you could have them every day. And it becomes a little bit of an incentive of what did today look like, So that's the kind how, you know, it's sort of I think, that's what we were batting around yesterday. And I think it was a really you know, Allan, I think you expressed it really well. And, you know, it's just like, what would be the data sources for this? 30:52 - George Goldsmith Because one of the things we're wrestling with, we don't want this tied to six and a half hours of music, because we'll run out of that really quickly. So the question is, how do we maybe partner with or gain data from all your listening? And Bob's talking about, well, what was the weather like that day where you were? Another data point we can get Oh, right. 31:13 - Eyal's iPhone Or what about how I what about also having a sense or a sensing the sensing capability of boundless to any music you're listening to? 31:26 - George Goldsmith Exactly right. 31:30 - George Goldsmith And this is going down, please. 31:33 - Allan Malievsky And so I mean, it's funny, because we've gone back and forth on just the degrees which, you know, would be integrated with vice or vice versa. With Spotify, with Apple music, with what have you. And I think that there is a degree to which, you know, we want to keep Dom's music, you know, front and center, especially out of the gate and so forth. But I think part, you know, of course there's the content limitation bit, right? We don't want to stray too far, you know, right out the gate with generate, you know, generated content, right? That's kind of driven, you know, by algorithm right out of the gate without more of a body of, you know, kind of artistic work kind of base on because I think it's totally usable. It's just maybe we need a little bit more robust. It needs to kind of be handed a personality. But I think also it's just the reality is not everybody's going to like it. And not everybody's going to feel this kind of momentum from it. And, you know, it's funny because I just came across yesterday. Apparently, you know, a lot of like we think this about kind of youth that, you know, use music as kind of maladaptive coping mechanisms to drive to drive rumination, to drive whatever. But some of them are doing it pretty healthy. So there's a lot of research around listening to heavy metal and anxiety and empathy. So this is actually correlated with it. I would have never guessed it. I can't listen to heavy metal. It's the most old fart thing about me. 32:57 - Eyal's iPhone I just can't. I don't hear it. 32:59 - Allan Malievsky So it would never occur to me. But for them, that might be precisely what they need to actually make progress is to engage with the boundless content, to interpret it kind of more creatively. And so I think it would just be depriving them of some value, right? And sure, there would have to be some kind of tiered access, but there's just a lot more stuff than just kind of our ambient, welcome in, spend time here. 33:25 - Unidentified Speaker It's always the direction people want to go or where they are. 33:28 - Allan Malievsky How do they start if they're not there, right? Yeah, I'm zooming out. 33:31 - Eyal's iPhone when you guys both here speaking and kind of Asking myself while listening to you, if I had to have a one liner of what is boundless as a consumer, right, as a user, what is the brand referring or encapsulates for me as a potential user? And then I my brain, well, even though I listen to you, you know, this is kind of the back I retrieved basically what I Read about what you guys have done in Compass. And so what I came back to, and it's still a process, is perhaps Boundless is kind of a interpreter or a guider, interpreter, hand holder, whisperer, if you will about my emotional journey through an experience and make sense for me. 34:36 - Unidentified Speaker It kind of sort of translates for me, the user. 34:43 - Eyal's iPhone What I'm going through, what I went through, in other words, it's not necessarily just the collection of songs or music you guys encapsulated. It's actually It's actually a filter, an emotional filter to different experience that may be perhaps in five years from now would be in so real time that, you know, you encounter somebody and the whisperer will tell you something really, really doesn't work between you and, you know, your reaction. 35:18 - Unidentified Speaker So in other words, it's really agnostic on the media, right? 35:24 - Eyal's iPhone It's like an interpreter because we all have feelings. But it took me so long and so much psychotherapy session to be able to identify that now I have an OCD, you know, an OCD stressful session or I'm angry. This or whatever, you know, we feel, but we don't necessarily understand what we feel. And so when, you know, when I, when I heard you guys talking about the experience in, in, in Compass, where the team there were able to make sure the patient is going through the journey and perhaps he needs a little bit more of that. So having boundless, which is not a medical grade thing. 36:24 - Eyal's iPhone It's the emotional mirror, if you will, to my experience, me as a user. But it's not just a mirror, it's also a decipher, somebody who deciphered that for me and explains that to me knowing me, who I am, what I am, what's my, you know, all of those above. And it could be to music, it could be through post watching a movie, it could be, you know, art, whatever, you know. That's sort of what rent, when I listened to Ellen and you, when Ellen brought the kind of the idea of sharing with friends, what was it? What was it like, you know, going through an experience on Boundless today? But then I said, well, perhaps it's this is it. 37:24 - George Goldsmith Perhaps we can zoom out. 37:27 - Eyal's iPhone And this is sort of the IP. This is sort of what's unique at Boundless, right? They have those wisdom eyes to let you know how you feel, why you feel, what you should take care of, what you should think, whatever, you know, I'm just throwing it very quickly I love it. 37:46 - George Goldsmith It gets very boundless. 37:48 - Eyal's iPhone Also, there's a tinge of Black Mirror. 37:52 - George Goldsmith I don't know if you've seen the Black Mirror TV show. Yeah, sure, sure. 37:56 - Eyal's iPhone There's a little tinge of, that's an episode. 37:59 - George Goldsmith But I also think there's insight in that, a lot of insight in that. I think this idea of how to reflect back, but add value, right? So it's kind of like the Snow White's mirror. 38:18 - George Goldsmith You know, it's adding, it's giving you more. But I think this is the, I think doing this in a way that's visual, that's not, you know, an aircraft instrument panel, just a very masculine way of looking at it. 38:41 - Eyal's iPhone But I think more imagistic, impressionistic, but also to reflect. 38:52 - George Goldsmith So if I look at Allan and me, even though Allan's living in a very sunny place, I know he really likes, at least until he moved to California, dark days in the north where the sun is low and the temperature is cool, and, you know, the sand is black, and it's volcanic, and it's Iceland, or Scotland. And for me, I tend to prefer brighter, warmer climates. So what could be a graphical representation of my good day would be different than Allan's. 39:29 - Eyal's iPhone And so, you know, I think that's where this gets pretty I think what, just putting my entrepreneurship founder background, sort of it's the, what is the way to cross the chasm or come to market, right? Would that be an open laboratory kind of, you know, open R&D kind of a few months where you guys are connected to your audience, you have data, you can try things, you can experiment things, and then you encapsulate everything into a mass market product, which could be an app, or you start with an app. 40:23 - Unidentified Speaker It's just a, yeah. Please, no, keep going, sorry. 40:29 - Eyal's iPhone No, no, just to sort of, because as a startup, you can only have limited resources that not necessarily are financial, but are really your time and your effort and the focus of the team and where And to me, I think the the app There's something really, really, we know that in the app is really, really vital, which is the data it can collect. 41:06 - Eyal's iPhone Now, does it collect through experiences I'm going through on the phone or the iPad, or is it connected to an experience I'm having in a location, right? Those are differences because if you now go for a full-fledged app, you're right, this discussion is important. Make people come back, what will retain them, what will make them virally share, I mean, the whole shebang of apps. But if you're saying, no, I'm still figuring it out. And I mean, I know that the DNA of this thing is making people or elevate people or relaxing people through a 30 minute session. And we know how to do that through real time biofeedback experience that also changes the music and the art while you experience it. 42:07 - George Goldsmith And that's who we are. 42:08 - Eyal's iPhone And we started with, you know, this location in London and later in New York and later. And we took everything and all of our experiences, which are, by the way, are still running and can go experience it here and there. But now we are coming with the app, you know, that this experience. I'm thinking out loud here. I think this is the main thing I can contribute to this discussion is that I'm fresh to what you guys are going through. And I meticulously kind of went through many, many months of thinking about this artistic experience. So I'm very focused. But also I have an experience of product so I can kind of you know relate to that Because my fear is when you when you develop as you know when you develop an app You might as well will find yourself putting everything you have on the app and eventually what will decide your your future Won't be even the product it will be the the freaking functionality usability media exposure, whatever, and you ran out of resources and you didn't even have a chance to nail what you wanted to do. Because it's expensive to wrap an app and bring it to market. 43:32 - George Goldsmith And I think that, well, it's very reflective. I think what we've spent a lot of time meticulously developing is the stimulus. Now what we need to do is assess the response. And then what we have to do is assess what do we do with that response to both the stimulus and the path forward. And so what we're envisioning is to start adding measurement. Now we have this piece in the high-risk room. We have a site in London. It's a little inconvenient, but it's a site in London where we could be running weekly sessions with measurement. And we could start sharing that with the community people who want to help co-create it. And then I think we can expand that because there's no reason we couldn't continue to learn with the app or the community around the app. And I think one of the things that Allan and I have spent time with yesterday with Rosie was just the mental model of an app is undergoing a profound change. 44:38 - George Goldsmith So this is not something that you engage with, it's something that engages you. 44:48 - George Goldsmith And so that's a really different shift of locus of control, locus of focus. And we're just at the birth of that, I think. And so, I think, to we want to start the research part. I think we also want to be super open make this better with us. 45:13 - George Goldsmith And what we did at Compass, I can't show it to you right now, but with the app we created at Compass, there was a single button you could press, and you saw every single data point that was being collected, why it was being collected, how it was going to be used, and a toggle switch to share it or not share it, that you could reach at any moment. 45:36 - George Goldsmith And then the question is, sharing for what? And so, you know, we could exchange discounts on the app. We could do all sorts of things. We could dedicate that to doing more research, to non-profit. I mean, there's all sorts of things you could do to encourage people to contribute. But I think this has to evolve that way, where it's really—Allan hates this. More than I do, but I'm still not comfortable with this, but it's the right direction. It's a movement. 46:12 - George Goldsmith You know, and you see that with Woop, you see that with Aura, you see it with these various tools. 46:20 - Eyal's iPhone I also think we're on the verge of disruption in user experience. I don't know if you're following, but I think it was Perplexity in the summer, there released a beta of a browser. Yesterday, Google released a beta to a limited beta group, an AI browser, which is fundamentally different so far in the way we used to are using the web. You have basically an agent that are constantly, the agent is a wrapper to But it's leading you or catering to you according to what you want to do. So let's say you're planning a trip to Egypt. So it's not just you're not just opening tabs based on searches on Egypt. You communicate with this agent and and it's evolving with the agent. And so. I think that a lot of things that we think based on our past experience are going to change in the next year. And we know how things are. It's in you worked very hard can look anachronistic. It can look like outdated very, very quickly. Another thing I'm being really following is there are two companies currently that I've seen where it's a real time video. 47:56 - Eyal's iPhone spatial video. In other words, you type. You type. Messages, for example, I want to be now in in, let's say, south of France. Specifically, I want to be in Monte Carlo. I want to be in the marina. I want to look now at this beautiful yacht that you describe as you write. The video happens. But it's a video, it's not images. And it's a spatial video, and you can look around, you can walk there, but it's constantly evolving as you type. It's a visual real-time simulation. I can send you guys two examples so you can see that. 48:39 - George Goldsmith I would love that. 48:42 - Eyal's iPhone And I look at it, right, and I'm saying, fuck! 48:46 - George Goldsmith You know, it took me so many years to do environments in Unreal, right? 48:52 - Eyal's iPhone or engineers, so many those micro elements, etc. And here I'm just typing this freaking message and I have the most beautiful waterfall. 49:03 - Eyal's iPhone But then I have two options. Either I remind me is my creative thinking and not necessarily the tool I'm using. And it requires me to be adaptive and open and think. So I'm bringing out loud because we're sort of in a junction now that we're experiencing yet again another disruptive time. And so I think taking the time, what we agreed last time, taking the time to really think through and not just start to, you know, amount of money and do a lot of energy without really, really being sure what it is that you're doing. I think it's wise now. Because the problem we have identified, we have identified that humanity now is in a terrible state. People are exhausted, lonely, sad, addicted. We know, right? We know that this is the condition of humanity. So the problem Now, what do we bring them that is unique to our capability? Anyway, I think we can we can talk a lot about that. Let's do the following, if that's OK, because I need to go soon. Me too. 50:30 - George Goldsmith So what we can do is send me the music, the vinyls. 50:35 - Eyal's iPhone I will I will send you today or tomorrow the links to the two interactive video things. 50:43 - Eyal's iPhone Definitely, I'll think through what Ellen and you described as sort of what could be a visual indicator that doesn't look like, you know, like an aircraft cockpit, right? It's sort of like a barometer that is engaging and it's unique and, you know, so we have things to think about and yeah, we can jump on another call. I don't know your holidays now. It's Hanukkah, but Christmas is coming. So you tell me what works for you guys. 51:16 - George Goldsmith I think let's give ourselves another couple weeks to digest in advance. We'll have the information from the branding organization too, which I think will be helpful as part of this puzzle. And I think maybe what we should do is actually leave it to you you'd like to talk after you've listened to the music, and then we'll just say, Okay, I think that would be the best thing. So when you're ready, and then we'll keep everything moving ahead, and you'll move on your side. And we'll just keep this going. Thank you. Thank you, guys. 51:53 - Eyal's iPhone Be well. As always, guys. 51:55 - Unidentified Speaker Thank you.