VTC: George & Eyal Thu, Jul 16, 2026 0:00 - George Goldsmith That good so that's that's happening, but um that's not fun, yeah. Yeah, it's not fun, but it's you know, part of part of life, and we're trying to be kind to each other, so um, we'll see all of that class through the involving other people. Um, so um, yeah, how are you doing aside from being super productive? 0:27 - Eyal Gever Yeah, so I've been super productive, been working on it non-stop. Um, other than that, all is good, all is fine, yeah, yeah. 0:39 - George Goldsmith War is kind of picking up again with your neighbors, but hopefully, nothing is coming back your way. 0:46 - Eyal Gever I hope so, yeah, definitely. Yesterday, I did a big lecture in the Bitesman Institute. And I mean, they had this kind of an event. They invited three scientists and myself. Each one had like 15 minutes to present. 1:11 - Eyal Gever And because then there was an award ceremony, an important award ceremony. But we were there. Two of the speakers were brain, brain scientists. 1:26 - George Goldsmith Yeah. 1:27 - Eyal Gever So I don't know them, but it was interesting, you know. Coincidentally, they researched the brain. 1:34 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. Interesting. 1:36 - Eyal Gever Yeah. 1:38 - George Goldsmith Well, you know, I think what's happening for us is that. We're now aiming. I think what could be good, we have the opportunity to do a presentation with Suvi, so she'll perform, and then be a panel, and then two days later, a boundless experience with Dell Acoustics, maybe either for possibly for up to 700 people and in London. And that would be on World Mental Health Day, which is October 10th. And I think that for me, that seems like a fairly reasonable time to have some testing, some early feedback on the app, but then to launch on World Mental Health Day, Awareness Day. 2:28 - Eyal Gever Nice. 2:29 - George Goldsmith Because I think it's congruent and I think it then kind of creates a little bit of space to make sure we're testing and getting feedback, etc. 2:39 - Eyal Gever Good. Have you seen what I've developed? 2:42 - George Goldsmith Yes, I'd love it actually. I think it's beautiful. I think the main thing that we're going to, I think, need to agree is how, well, two things. One is I want to just make sure we understand how we're working together. So that was one of my things of just getting some ideas on the table with you today. His work is beautiful, but I, you know, obviously we need to. Get that organized. And I also wanted to, I think the team and I are not wanting this to be live. We want the app to be dark when people are listening, not to distract them, because that'll take down the entropic score considerably if they open their eyes. So, I think I love the idea of the time-lapse. Kind of photography and I love the voice note in the integration. I think that's really cool. What is the time lapse? Well, I'd like to, is there a way to essentially do a compressed 30-second video of the changes for 40 minutes? So could you compress that and do like a really fast, almost a video for people that they could have in addition to a start or stop picture? Image. Yeah. 4:03 - Eyal Gever And you don't see a flow where some users would rather see something visually and not just black? 4:13 - George Goldsmith No, I don't. I think that initially, because that will lower the entropy score, we know that for a fact. 4:22 - Eyal Gever And so if we're building it around that premise. 4:26 - George Goldsmith I think then, you know, now that could be different than for an event, for example. But I think the premise of the app is to keep people in the entropic state. And if we develop an embedded confound of that, then I think we are creating a kind of a conflict of what we're saying is true with what the experience is. 4:50 - George Goldsmith Right. 4:51 - Eyal Gever The question I have, and I think Matt also talked about it, is I don't think it's a killer app if it's not personalized. 5:03 - Eyal Gever And I think it's okay. I mean, there will This would be personalized, wouldn't it? 5:09 - George Goldsmith Why would it not be personalized? The sound doesn't change. 5:14 - Eyal Gever The music won't change according to your journey. The visual do change according to the journey. 5:21 - Unidentified Speaker Yes. 5:22 - Eyal Gever And I think the sales differentiator would be harder because what what will make people develop a habit to use it on a daily basis if it's generic? It's a major issue. I one of the things I'm always looking at ideas is is it a nice to have or is it something fundamental? Now it's hard to argue that this is fundamental because, you know, medicine is fundamental. This is, you know, meditation falls into definitely improving someone's life, but it's not a, you know, a, and so looking at looking what could be, what creates a network effect, what could create you know users starting to to develop a habit I think it needs much more than just um music which always is the same and a a black screen I'm saying it not because I'm trying to push my art I'm saying it because it's a it's an app it's not the it's not um it's not a treatment place like you had in um uh compass pathways and it's not a sanctuary you understand what I'm saying it's an app so what's sexy about it it 6:55 - George Goldsmith needs some sexiness you know and sexiness is the output that every day you get to create an image, a perspective, a view of your state. And you go inward to do that. You're it background. You're not playing, you know, that it's actually something that, so what is personalized is every time you get this kind of beautiful image and summary of your state that can be shared. 7:27 - Eyal Gever So that's what already you have in the art machine, basically. 7:32 - George Goldsmith yeah yeah all I'm saying is everything is the same except not having it live viewing viewing it live uh or having it defaulting to being black so people stay focused and then there could switch to have them be able to look at it and we could collect data on who does which but but look at what this is where I'm losing you look at what bob showed looking at what i've created what you've created what you've created so the flow would be user before jumping into a session choose an art because he knows that at the end of the session that will be a recorded journey. 8:11 - Eyal Gever That's yeah, that will be a recorded souvenir. But when he enters the session, he doesn't see anything, it becomes dark. 8:20 - George Goldsmith Okay, no, when he, yeah, well, after he fills out that, yeah. 8:26 - Eyal Gever right, which I think is beautiful, by the way, how you did that. 8:28 - George Goldsmith The open flows, etc. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that basically that creates the starting point, which could then fade into darkness, and then at the end, it comes back. And you know, we could collect data and say you can turn this on or off, but the default is off because I think that would actually create some. Feedback we could actually do that and correlate, you know, on average, people turn it off, have lower entropy score or turn it on, have lower entropy scores. Yeah. 9:01 - Eyal Gever So we could do it that way. 9:04 - George Goldsmith And, but I think that. I don't want people looking at the screen. 9:10 - Eyal Gever I don't want them engaging with their phones because that's part of the promise of what we're doing. 9:17 - George Goldsmith But it is completely personalized at the end, right? That's completely. 9:24 - George Goldsmith Their effort is, in a way, right? Their effort is rewarded by this piece of beautiful empathic core. 9:33 - Eyal Gever Yeah, I gotcha. Okay. No, initially I thought it's only but the end would be what the frame no no okay no no it's yeah and then if we did a time lapse right so then you could imagine like a beautiful flow uh across the the time yeah and also I created this timeline there where you can zoom to every one of those sessions you saw yes it creates this gallery which I think came out really nice and also the themes, the styles. And there I thought, you know, eventually it could become like perhaps a marketplace, if you will, where there are the, you know, the favorite one of the months, the new ones, you know. 10:27 - George Goldsmith But we were talking more to Phil. And, you know, are you familiar with the Humans of New York project? 10:35 - Unidentified Speaker No. So there is a website called Humans of New York. And basically, it's photo essays in people's life stories, and they contribute to it. 10:49 - George Goldsmith When we started Compass, we had this expression: everyone has a story, because the more people we talk to, the more we realize everyone has a story, someone else's. 11:03 - George Goldsmith Our vision was to essentially have people contribute what their stories are and to have a community around it. And I think that, you know, being able for people to share, where they entered this that day, what changed for them. And we'll have a bunch of playlists of the subscription version. And so then there is constant personalization and kind of in the video souvenir, the piece of empathic art, that's always going to be different just by definition. And then they would have different inputs that could be done. 11:46 - Unidentified Speaker And then I think sharing that or having a place for them. 11:49 - George Goldsmith I mean, it could be. You could almost think of it as a new, almost a profile picture, right? A dynamic profile picture of how they do it. 11:58 - Eyal Gever Yeah, yeah. Yeah, um, I tried, I tried to create a holistic experience, an emotional journey, and I've implemented the styles. I've been researching for a long time, like since I've been working on empathic art, and I had a lot of the code, that's why I was able to compile it so quickly. But I don't know if you saw, but I have there one that is homage to Read, and one is Homage to Rotko. 12:37 - George Goldsmith Yes. Yeah. 12:39 - Eyal Gever Yeah. I think, yeah, it came out night very nicely. Did Yakov look at it at the GitHub? Do you know? 12:47 - George Goldsmith We're not having a call with him until tomorrow, I think. I'm not sure. So I don't, I've not been in touch. 12:55 - Eyal Gever Okay, so they created a full-fledged, full-on documented GitHub with everything he needs to integrate, like every comment, it's all beautifully organized. 13:10 - George Goldsmith Yes. 13:10 - Unidentified Speaker I saw it. Yeah. 13:14 - George Goldsmith So I guess the question for me is how, and we're just have time to start this today, but how do you think, you know, so how do we work together? What's your thought about the structure? Of this, you've done so much and it's so beautiful. And you know, is it equity, equity, royalty? Um, how would you do you have a perspective of what would make this interesting for you, or plus, access all what we've done, right? 13:48 - Eyal Gever So it would be all the data coming off of this, etc. 13:52 - George Goldsmith Certainly sharing with you in a data sharing arrangement if we need. 13:58 - Eyal Gever So actually I thought to ask you how ideally you would want me to be involved. 14:04 - George Goldsmith What would be a preferable scenario? 14:10 - Eyal Gever And then based on that, I think we can start this conversation. Like what now by now you know me, you know my capabilities, my history, my abilities, et cetera. 14:25 - George Goldsmith I also think I get to know you, Eyal, which has been really nice too. 14:32 - George Goldsmith And so, look, I think that if we're going to create value inside of Boundless, this will need to be an asset owned by Boundless. So, that would lead to there is a there, there's IP. There's IP on that, there's copyright on the music, there's IP on the chaos engine. So we'd have things that become an investable entity. Otherwise, it's a nice art project, right? But I think that in order to scale, in order to have future development, et cetera, in order to provide support to it. It. And in order to then use this in group settings in installations, that's what's next, right? So I think that the best way to do that is to put it into boundless and then work on the structure of equity share or equity and royalties. The way we've structured Dominic, you know, it may be a similar fashion where there's just a royalty stream from sales, you know, so percentage of revenue on sales, so a royalty stream that way in exchange for this kind of license to us or license back. I think we need to get lawyers in, but mostly what I'm thinking is a combination of equity and royalty back so that you benefit from the growth of both the revenues and the Enter enterprise value. 16:10 - Eyal Gever Right. 16:13 - George Goldsmith And we could do that with, you know, as light or as heavy an involvement as you want. 16:20 - Eyal Gever No, but I'm asking you from just what what's your what's your um because there were discussions where and also in the call that the expectation, or I, you know, I should work on the UH, the UI, the art, the so it's not just licensing, it's also an ongoing work. 16:47 - George Goldsmith Oh, yeah. So, in that domain, you know, I think that partly it's what you feel you can contribute, what amount of time. You know, so Suvi, for example, we're talking to her right now, and we've agreed that she'll spend about 10 hours a week with us, and that that will be focused on doing things like the minotage, which you saw. It'd be focused on some partnerships that she's introducing us to, et cetera. And there's sort of a, okay, this is a 10-hour a week game, a day-a-week plus, right? And for that, there's a consulting fee. And then, if there's music produced that we will have as part of the collective, there will be a licensing or you know, royalty stream, right? So, so that, but for me, I think what I want to do is to have you. Be energized and motivated to spend whatever time. And I think that this first iteration is really about getting it out into the world. And I think that's something that would be like this type of intensity until we do the beta test and then a refer, you know, a refinement based on that. Once it's launched, I don't think, I think then we're looking at, well, what's the next iteration or how do we bring this into immersive spaces? So we could do that as a series of projects, if you will. But I also want to be aware that, yeah, what are you thinking? 18:17 - Eyal Gever No, I'm trying to figure out. I see a difference between me and Suvi because. 18:23 - George Goldsmith Oh, a huge difference. Yeah. 18:26 - Eyal Gever So I'm trying to figure out what's the sort of vision you have, or Alan, or both of you for me. Obviously, I'm a full-time artist. I have a practice. I have a career, but I've been working on it for a long time. I've created this also for this app version. I think something that has value in a very speed, speedy way. So it could be. Be ported and delivered for September, October. 18:56 - George Goldsmith Yes. 18:57 - Eyal Gever Also for the future sanctuaries, I've worked for two and a half years and created this real-time development on Unreal Engine, you that it can be easily integrated to Muse and what, you know, cameras. So I'm trying to figure out, okay, what is the Am I an advisor or am I going to be in some form of a creative director that I need to spend 12 hours a week? Does it include equity vesting as well as regarding to the license? I can think through the details and throw you back in the next few days some ideas. But just having a rev share and you said a revenue share and invested equity. I would love to have you be part of this, to be very clear. 20:01 - George Goldsmith Like a real part of the team. But I also found myself, as I was talking with you, also aware that you said you didn't really want to be part of this kind of startup thing again because you're an artist. So that has changed. You know, we can create a portion of a role where you are kind of artistic director, for example. And, that is a role that gives you time and space in your life. So, Dom is creative director and kind of leading all the kind of music division. 20:35 - Eyal Gever Music, yeah. 20:38 - Eyal Gever Okay, so that could be, I can frame that in a language, and also as to the license of the whatever we call it that I've created for the app. And by the way, any period, even I may be a creative, how did you describe it? A creative, what is Tommy? 21:03 - Unidentified Speaker Artistic, yeah. Yeah. 21:05 - Eyal Gever There is always a project that I will take all my time to, because I'm passionate and I'll create it, right? If there is a sanctuary we need to create or not, another version, so it spikes, right? 21:16 - George Goldsmith Yeah. 21:18 - Eyal Gever But I think the only open question I can put through in text some writings and on the role and monthly fee on the hours and ballpark on vested equity or a vesting plan. As to the license, I had in mind not just the equity plan and revenues share, you know. I thought we can do it on a monthly basis with some kind of an upfront. If it's an upfront, then I can pay from the first payment to Lise and Vide their share, and that's it. I don't need to drag them for the rest of the relationship. 22:04 - George Goldsmith Okay. But I was thinking on money, not just on even you understand where I'm heading. 22:13 - Eyal Gever I don't have the ballpark. But this is sort of what I was thinking: not just revenue share and equity, because I don't know if it's going to be alive in a year from now. 22:24 - George Goldsmith Yeah. And I'm doing a lot, a lot of the work already. What, what are, what's your, it's your deal, obviously, with Liz and Variety, it's not mine, but what, what kind of, how are they thinking about it or how haven't spoken to them at all. 22:39 - Eyal Gever I just told them. We've been working and when the deal terms will be solidified, I'll let them know. I think, you know, I respect them and I think, you know, they haven't been involved in any way in this. However, they should get their finders fee. They get a 30% commission on a project that I do or a sale. I don't think they need to be tag along for everything I receive here. But if there is a payment and let's say it's a payment for until September and everything I've created that boundless receive and then we have a recurring license on a monthly basis, they don't need to get on a recording license, they can get on the upfront. You know, I think, let's say, if it's a 40, 50K and they get their 30%, I think it's it's a it's a beautiful finders fee. 23:41 - George Goldsmith Yep, yeah, exactly. Cool. So why don't you think about that? I have to go talk to a physical sanctuary place now in Saudi that wants to do this through Clinic Le Prairie. But if you could put some thoughts to that, I'm going to Africa with Sierra and I plan to be offline until the 29th. 24:03 - Unidentified Speaker Okay, so that would be from next week. 24:07 - George Goldsmith Yeah. Yeah. So the after, it would be after, I'm back on Wednesday the week after next. 24:14 - Eyal Gever Cool. Enjoy every moment. 24:17 - George Goldsmith I plan to. 24:19 - Eyal Gever I'm sure we'll, because I'm very passionate. I love working with you and Ellen, really. 24:25 - George Goldsmith Yeah, so do I. Yeah. 24:27 - Eyal Gever And I've been. For two and a half years intuitively working on what I really believe in this, you extreme present, art really must be empathic and feel. It's something I want to create. And I think the partnership here could be really mutually beneficial. And I'm passionate to do some amazing things, especially in the sanctuaries. But also in the app. I have years and years of experience in user, you know, in UI and UX, and I've been there 30 years. 25:06 - Unidentified Speaker So I know how to do it. Well, beautiful. 25:09 - George Goldsmith If I will let you know what I learned on the next thing, I will be in touch with you back and keep I will keep peeking when you send links. 25:17 - Eyal Gever Okay, I just want to so do you want me to put stuff on paper while you are away or wait till you're back? 25:25 - George Goldsmith Um, put it on paper, but know that I won't look at it until I'm back. 25:29 - Unidentified Speaker Okay, so there's no pressure, right? 25:32 - George Goldsmith Um, cool, thank you, Joe, and be well. 25:36 - Eyal Gever And I hope, I hope for you and Katya, you know. That it will be as, you know, as elegant as possible. That's that's maybe the word, graceful. That's the word. 25:51 - Unidentified Speaker Yeah. 25:52 - Eyal Gever I agree. And I think we're, I hope we're both there. I'm there. So good. Take care. Bye-bye.